Unveiling the Mystery of Chaga with Ben Bohémier

Alisa Nappa June 13, 2024

mycelium-ebook

Photo by Ben Bohémier (Fruit Body of Chaga)

Today we dive into the mysterious world of chaga with Ben Bohémier. We don't know much about chaga's life cycle, it's illusive rare fruiting body, or much of anything to say the least. Ben is one of the leading experts on the matter and the more he dives in the weirder this world becomes and the more questions arise.

TRANSCRIPT

Unknown Speaker 0:00 Alex, Unknown Speaker 0:11 welcome, welcome. You are listening to the mushroom revival podcast. I'm your host, Alex Dorr, and we are absolutely obsessed with the wonderful, wacky, mysterious world of mushrooms and fungi. We bring on guests and experts from all around the world to geek out with us and go down a rabbit hole on these mysterious, beautiful, interesting fungi and mushrooms to try to figure out what the heck is going on in this world, and dive into the various niches of these experts to get a up close and personal experience on on their relationship with with mushrooms and fungi. And we have my friend Ben, who I met in Ecuador very recently, on the on the on the episode today, to talk about, hello, lots of things, including Chaga and life cycle, sexuality of fungi, clamp, connections, you name it. Unknown Speaker 1:06 Ben, how you doing? Dude, I'm doing awesome. Man, yeah. I'm just sitting here in the lab at the school. Figurative is like a good place to be to share the knowledge. I just channeled all the all the fungus smarts from the lab, and I'll channel them into the podcast today. So yeah, well, judging on all of our conversations in Ecuador, you, yeah, you have a wealth of information that most of it goes way over my head. Yeah, but I love the enthusiasm, even though I don't understand about like 90% of it you, Unknown Speaker 1:43 yeah, you're one of the rare people in mycology that is classically trained in mycology. And yeah, knows what the heck you're talking about. So, yeah, Congrats. Thanks. Yeah, no, it's been good. I mean, yeah, I kind of Yeah. So right now I'm in Canada and Ontario, Thunder Bay, Ontario, to be exact. It's kind of on the north shore of Lake Superior, near northern Minnesota, for anyone from the US listening. And I study at a university here called Lakehead University, and I'm pretty much the only person studying mycology here. And yeah, we'd get up to some pretty cool stuff in the lab. Even with, you know, not the most state of the art lab, we can still do some pretty cool research. Unknown Speaker 2:33 And yeah, no, I'm doing my master's right now, so I'm obviously like everyone else, I'm still learning about fungi and just kind of diving into it. And, yeah, no, it's great. Unknown Speaker 2:45 I just had Unknown Speaker 2:48 Mandy and Alan on the podcast to talk about our Ecuador trip, and I told them during the episode, I was like, Yeah, Ben and Audrey were, like, my two favorite people on the trip. They're so great. Unknown Speaker 3:01 I'm really glad you two came and you convinced Audrey to come as well. That was like, Yeah, super, super cool. No, dude, it was awesome. Yeah, no, that was such an incredible trip. Yeah, definitely learn a lot, having, like, grown, like, learned and grown as being kind of this, like, lonely mycologist in my hometown, it's really nice that I've like tried to get out and meet other people. Obviously, it's been really awesome meeting like Alan and Mandy and also Kyle cannon. Those people have been really influential. And my you know, growth as a mycologist and learning about all this stuff that's out there, Unknown Speaker 3:43 and learning about fungal taxonomy, because that's not really an area that I've been super interested in until recently, with Alan. And obviously, Alan's like, the one of the bigger taxonomists in the game right now, and Mandy and Kyle and and, yeah, it's, it's, it's pretty cool learning about all that stuff. Yeah, whereas over here, where I learned, you know, molecular work with fungi, was it's not really taught in any way at all. So I've been kind of learning about all that on my own time. But really here he's been concerned mainly like my background in mycology, which is becoming a lesser and lesser taught thing is culturing and Unknown Speaker 4:34 a culturing background, as well as using lots of books for ID and stuff like that. So actually, I did a lot of my work, not so much in the field for years, but actually, like, just kind of in the lab, like, all the time. I just looked at molds for a long time, and I and I, like, you know, trust me, I've always been very interested in the macro fungi, the mushrooms, but the micro fungi are so. Unknown Speaker 5:00 So cool. There's such a gigantic diversity of them. So that's generally so I study under Dr Leonard Hutchison, and he kind of is really into hyphae, mycedes, which are essentially molds that produce their kinedira, asexual spores, kind of externally. And also there's different types that produce them inside those structures. But, yeah, no, so I've been, I've been learning about all that, and, yeah, and something that Hutchinson says, which I think is interesting kind of relating to this, you know, new world of DNA that's still not that new, but, you know, relatively new saying things like our only as good as our books and things like that. And it's that's kind of how I learned about these things. And then when I learned about this whole world of molecular it was like, holy moly, it's crazy. And for the longest time, when I was just learning in my undergrad, I thought this is kind of all that was was there. And then I started learning that it was just endless, and I just been diving into it more and more. And it's been so crazy learning about all that. But I do find that learning like through books and identifying things through books and keying things out, you get this very intimate knowledge of the morphologies of these fungi, which isn't really, you know, like, I mean, some people like, for example, Alan, I think is a really Alan Rockefeller. For those who aren't familiar listening, you should check them out. But if you're not familiar, definitely, Unknown Speaker 6:43 yeah, but he, I think he's an excellent example of what me and Hutch like to talk about, Unknown Speaker 6:51 of I think the way to go these days in mycology. Because I think when DNA kind of first hit the scene in mycology, Unknown Speaker 7:00 you know, everyone is really just going to go, like, this is all we're going to do. And I think it's really easy as scientists when there's new, exciting technology, just like, dive into it, and that's all anyone wanted to do. He, he told me at the time, and when that was being developed, that that's all the research that wanted to be done. But I think now it would be really cool to see, and is kind of this combination of modern molecular techniques with more classical techniques. So like my microscopy and DNA, and like Alan, does all of it, and that's kind of what I want to learn eventually, is being able to do, kind of the whole suite of what you need to do to be kind of, you know, like a, I don't want to say a proper mycology, but just to learn, like the whole organism and intimately by its nucleic acid, and also by its basidia, cystidia, And the shape of the spores and size of all these things and micro morphologies and and I think that's something that's that's so cool, and it's so awesome to see Unknown Speaker 8:13 people kind of doing the two. And that's kind of what I think the direction is. It's very interesting when, when I approach all these new mycologists, like, everyone's like, so, Unknown Speaker 8:24 like, relatively, quite well versed in molecular terminology and and talking about it, and I didn't really, I've been learning about it all on my own, so, but then when I talk about all this microscope stuff, you know, it's like a lot of people, it will also go over their heads too. So it's like, it's, it's interesting combining, you know, those two different areas of knowledge can be very useful, I think, in mycology. And, yeah, I hope to just spread this training I've got around and, you know, make sure it's not lost, because it's, it's such an awesome thing to be able to do. But anyway, I agree, and here I am doing none of it. Unknown Speaker 9:09 I go out in the woods, I find new mushrooms, I take a shaky picture on my iPhone, and that's Unknown Speaker 9:16 about it, you know. And I'm not contributing as much as I should, and hanging out with like you and Alan, who are doing the real work, and, you know, working under a microscope, doing DNA, avidly posting on iNaturalist. And here I am just like, Oh, I found a cool mushroom Unknown Speaker 9:35 that's definitely still very valid though. Like, for sure, it's just, yeah, I guess, like, Unknown Speaker 9:42 I guess in the sense of, you know, advancing the field, whatever that means, you know, I guess that kind of the techniques I was just talking about, I think would be very valuable to have. But I think what you do, you do so much for mycology with this podcast. And. Unknown Speaker 10:00 And everything you do is great. Unknown Speaker 10:03 So if that stomach can contribute, then I'll keep doing it. I think everyone can contribute to the mycelium in many different ways. So but anyway, and what was it like in school, like when you were learning classical mycology? Were you excited about it, or Where's kind of a learning curve, where at first you're like, Oh, this is kind of a drag or boring, and then oh, and then later you're like, Oh no, this is great. Or No, I loved it immediately awesome, like I was engulfed by the mycelium right away, I pretty much like So technically, my my undergraduate was in forestry. So I studied forestry, and then I was, you know, I didn't know what I was going to do with that, necessarily. I worked as a tree planter in Canada, which is a very common job in Canada, it's piece rate. You plant 1000s of trees a day. And I did that for a couple years, but then for a while, my first introduction to mycology was actually forest pathology, which is very, you know, important for if you're trying to cultivate timber, you know, understanding what type of fungi will come and munch your wood and roots and stuff. So that's kind of what I learned, and Unknown Speaker 11:19 that was my first introduction. So I actually didn't really know like much about fleshy fungi Unknown Speaker 11:25 for a while. Most of my work was on, you know, bracket fungi and Unknown Speaker 11:31 things like that. Really the only like fleshy fungi we would talk about would be things like Armillaria, Unknown Speaker 11:36 root rot and, Unknown Speaker 11:39 you know, things like that, like and maybe like my advisor, he's done a lot of work with ectomycorrhizal fungi, so we would talk quite a bit about ectomycorrhizal fungi. But, you know, didn't really like cover Unknown Speaker 11:52 the mushrooms. And that wasn't until, actually his advanced course that only had three students where he actually really dived into doing microscopy of, like, fleshy fungi in the lab, learning about now they're called, they're called the hymeno My seats. Now they call the agaricomycetes, but that just basically encompasses, you know, like, pretty much all these macro, the city of myce fungi that we know of, generally just kind of, Unknown Speaker 12:20 yeah, so, and that's when I really was, like, holy, and we were learning about all these old systems of taxonomy too, that we have to memorize. And they're based on, you know, these on microscopy, generally. And now, you know, like, then the families all made sense, you know, and everything was organized, like this family has this colored spores, and generally has these structures. The spores are amyloid, blah, blah, blah, and they're and they're defined in this family, and generally that's the case today. But then you'll see like things where the families become incredibly confusing because they don't look anything alike under the microscope sometimes or Unknown Speaker 13:03 and, but, you know, relatively like, but it can, it can become pretty confusing. You know, I was talking to Alan, and he was saying, I was, I will often ask, Oh, what family is this genus in? If I'm learning a new genus, and he'll say, and he told me in Ecuador, Unknown Speaker 13:19 something about Unknown Speaker 13:21 how he doesn't really pay attention to families as much anymore, and that's more helpful in plant taxonomy. So fungal taxonomy is like this crazy wild west at the moment, and it's something I think I'm focusing in on. It's kind of more, if anything, for me, doing fungal taxonomy, getting on the field, collecting, like, that's that's like, more like this. It's a bit more of like a leisure time. And like, the secondary research I do is in the field and collecting, and I'm adding and sending things away for sequencing. I love that. It's super fun, and it's like, awesome to interact with them in the field. But a lot of my work mainly just happens in the lab, looking at different things. Unknown Speaker 14:06 And do you want to talk about, yeah, what's your day to day in the lab? What does that look okay, so, well, it varies greatly. But, I mean, so what I'm researching right now is, is Chaga, so it's a mushroom that was, you know, it's used in teas and now gummies and mud, water and all these things. Unknown Speaker 14:30 So it's kind of, it's, it's becoming a very popular substance, but it's been used for a very long time medicinally. Unknown Speaker 14:40 You know the literature says like the 17th and 16th centuries, but I am sure that it's been used far longer than that. Especially there's not much in the literature about indigenous peoples in Canada and in North America, like it's, it's, it's been used for a very long. Unknown Speaker 15:00 Time, and I think it's something that I'd like to do in my career is definitely talk to elders Unknown Speaker 15:07 that know a bit about Chaga and gain some knowledge that can then be combined with, you know, Western knowledge and indigenous knowledge. And, you know, get some cool stuff. There's actually one book out there about medicinal plants of the indigenous people in this region and Chagas in there, but they don't talk about it too much. But anyway, it's circumboreal, so it wraps around the globe. This fungus, as far as we know. So yeah, it's kind of all over the place. It generally grows on birch trees, but it can appear in other hardwoods. You know, this is Chaga. The Chaga community is interesting. I've, I've kind of peeked in there and, man, people, people like, it's so funny when you're on these Facebook groups and someone posts a picture that's not Chaga, and there's like, 50 comments on it that's not Chaga. Are you crazy? It's Unknown Speaker 16:05 so funny, I kind of giggle at it. But anyway, that's beside, I mean, that's like any mushroom Facebook, exactly. It's whatever mushroom there's like, there's so many comments on it. It's hilarious. But anyway, so what I am interested in is, so basically Chaga as we know it. Most people consider Chaga this black mass that grows, typically on burst trees, other hardwoods as well. Unknown Speaker 16:32 And it's this big black mass that people will, Unknown Speaker 16:36 you know, break up into powder and try to make tea out of it. Generally, the way I like to prepare it is just, you know, I try to think of, like, how would like someone from the land prepare this Chaga, they throw the thing in the pot and boil it. And some people would, you know, I just put the whole like, I let it dry, because I can't process it right away. I'm a busy guy. I don't have time to do that sometimes. And I just take the chunk that's that's like, rock hard, and I just put it in a pot and boil it and then break it up after and freeze the chunks. That's how I like to prepare it. I think a lot of people could, you know, be like, Oh my God, you're not extracting, like, as much or but I find that works for me, and it tastes pretty alright, and it's easy, and I like to do it that way. But yeah, that's, that's one way to make chaga tea. People make tinctures out of it, but yeah, so what I'm concerned with is not so much the actual some people call it a Sclerotium, or a pseudo Sclerotium, or there's all these different ways that people call it, but I like to just call it the sterile conch. So people think it's a it's, you know, mushrooms. Their main Unknown Speaker 17:44 purpose is to act as, you know, a way to release spores into the environment. And Chaga is not doing that. So the black master scene is not producing spores. It's just this weird thing. Some people think it's like wood reaction from the tree, because it is a pathogenic fungus. So it is decaying the tree. However, we do find in Chaga. I mean, there isn't a lot of published research on this, but just anecdotal that often when I see Chaga on a tree, I don't see anything else growing on it, you know. So it definitely is a very aggressive wood decay fungus, but I could see it, you know, probably not letting other fungi join the party. So that's, that's one thing. So generally, I find on birch trees, this really is only like two hardwoods in my region, in the boreal, there's like birch and like poplar trembling Aspen. Generally, that's pretty much it. I mean, sometimes, if you're lucky, and like, maybe some older but that's a shrub here, you know. So it's like, yeah, but anyway, where is I running with that? But yeah, so Unknown Speaker 18:53 it God, I lost my train of thought. Unknown Speaker 18:57 But yeah, most, most people, just think of Chaga as the sclerotia, right? That, yes, that conch. And when I was first getting into mushrooms, Unknown Speaker 19:07 I thought it was a mushroom, yeah, and that's all I knew of it, you know, I and the second I figured out the entire life cycle of Chaga blew my mind like it was the weirdest thing. I think it has one of the weirdest life cycles. I think, I think it also does too. It's so weird, man. Like, the more I look at it, the more I'm like, this thing's so weird. But basically, like, what it does is it's decaying this tree, and people harvest the chaga, and they're like, Yay, tea and tinctures and stuff. And then eventually the chaga will kill the tree, or, like, weaken it enough to allow opportunistic pathogens to come in and finish the job, or like insects or whatever. But I kind of have, um, the impression that the chaga like often when I see, like a fruiting, or when I've I've actually seen I've. Unknown Speaker 20:00 Come pretty good at spotting old Chaga fruit bodies in the wild. And often when the I'll see a Chaga broken right where the chaga was, and it's like broken in half, and there's a fruit body happening. So to dial it back a little, the tree will die. And then a year later, sometimes two years later, the literatures consist two to three years. I think he could probably fruit sooner, probably the next year, sometimes. But there's no literature on this stuff, but there's a little bit. Brit bonyer Did probably one of the best papers on the trade body. Yeah, yeah. Did a great job. He looked at Unknown Speaker 20:37 beetles associated with the fruit body. Unknown Speaker 20:41 And forget the third genus, orchizia, pretty sure. Unknown Speaker 20:46 But anyway, Unknown Speaker 20:49 yeah, so the tree will die, and then the bark will rupture open and this big, resuppinate, meaning flat, kind of poroid, porous mass kind of produces along the trunk, and the bark is like, kind of like open, like a Christmas present, like, and then the fruit body is there, and it will what the literature says it will. It'll occur a single time in its life cycle. Unknown Speaker 21:20 I don't know to see it for myself, because I've seen of I saw a Chaga fruit body with Mandy cork, Allan Rockefeller and Kyle cannon last year, Unknown Speaker 21:33 and that was crazy. We stumbled upon it on Madeline island in Wisconsin. There's a video of it on my scene in media, for those who are curious, and Unknown Speaker 21:45 it, yeah, it was, it was crazy, and I know where it is, so I'm gonna go back again and see what it's doing, and if it's fruiting again, that this the only record. I'll probably publish the finding. And you know that'll be like the first record of that fruiting multiple times, because the literature usually says once, once in an infection cycle, which isn't, I don't know. I have a feeling that it can definitely, it could probably fruit again. I mean, you know, I don't think that Mycelium is that lazy. I think you Unknown Speaker 22:16 can give another but I don't know. Well, who knows? I might go back there and it's just, it's done, you know, and that's it, and that's the case. That's even cooler, that the things are confirmed. But I, I bet you, there is exceptions to the rule, as most time in in mycology, almost always there are exceptions to the rule. Unknown Speaker 22:39 But, yeah, so that was amazing. So for me, I going to find this one in the wild. I have already interacted with the fruit body a bunch, but not in the wild. Actually fruit in the lab here. So that's what I My research is on. It primarily is looking at the mating system and the mating behavior of Chaga, because it's very understudied. It has, up until a year ago, there was one paper published on it Unknown Speaker 23:12 in China, I think, in yangsu province, I think. And, yeah, but basically, I my, my work has been to so whenever you want to do meeting work with spores, you need single spores to do stuff with, because they're like seeds, you know. So when they germinate, you get different mycelium. The typical mushroom life cycle is the spores germinate, the mycelium will interact with each other. If they're compatible, they'll exchange nuclei and then remain in this diary or heterokaryotic state where there are two different nuclei and they just divide, but they don't they're not actually like n or 2n they're n plus n, so they're just like, continually dividing, like, synchronously Unknown Speaker 24:02 as the mycelium grows. And then, right before the spores come or the they will fuse, and then do meiosis in the basidium, which is the cell that produces the spores, and then they'll be released from there. Unknown Speaker 24:19 But yeah, so you really need sports to do any meeting work. So that's kind of becoming my area of interest, and it has been for the last couple years, I would say. So I'm still in my infancy and learning about these things. I actually just listened to the episode with the death cap guy can't remember. Yeah, yeah, great paper. No, he's super cool. And I was actually, I was I listen, I love that, that podcast, I was really cool to listen to. And for those who had listened to that, Unknown Speaker 24:53 basically Unknown Speaker 24:55 he talks about this mushroom being able to reproduce from a single Spore. Unknown Speaker 25:00 Or and everything. And trogger can do a similar thing, but in a different way. So we're going to talk about that just a little. Unknown Speaker 25:09 But yeah, so I need those single spores, and then right now what I want to do for my research is actually just observe their nuclei, because that's kind of like what I'm able to do within the scope of my masters. At the moment, I would like to do more with it, but it's kind of in its infancy, this, this whole project. Unknown Speaker 25:30 But basically what I've done is stimulate these fruit bodies to form, these rare fruit bodies that you can't find so much in nature. So it's not like for like the Death cap, for example, you want to study its spores a bit. And Unknown Speaker 25:45 so what you can do is you can go out. It is an ectomycorrezo fungus, so it would be tricky to grow it. But for any mushroom you know, you say you want to study the mating system of you know, Unknown Speaker 25:59 our malaria, you go out and find a fruit body, and you get a print and you can look at spores. But with Chaga, you have to be like, Okay, I'm gonna go to the exact right time and place to find this rare, obscure fruit body to study it. Like, that's not great Unknown Speaker 26:19 for funding. You could, like be spending years doing field work unless you know maybe the right forest to look in, then you have pretty hot you actually can increase your chances quite a lot, because now I'm familiar with what kind of forest it occurs in. But anyway, Unknown Speaker 26:36 so basically, what I'm doing is developing a protocol to fruit them in vitro to do work with this fruit body, because Chaga is very quickly becoming an exploited resource, which we know very little. We don't even understand how it reproduces very well, pretty much at all, and I so I think it's very important that before we start inoculating hundreds of 1000s of birch trees with Chaga mycelium. I know there was a paper done in Finland where they inoculated, you know, I think 600 birch trees with Chaga mycelium to see how it grows. Unknown Speaker 27:12 And we don't really very we don't really understand its population dynamics very well yet. Unknown Speaker 27:20 So, yeah. So I think we need to understand that a bit better before we start inoculating it with Chaga mycelium, probably from a different region, and just kind of seeing how that kind of packed the organism, as well as kind of the population of trees and fungi as a whole. Unknown Speaker 27:41 So the I'm doing kind of, I'm starting to do some kind of groundwork right now. So Unknown Speaker 27:48 basically, God, I feel like I've just been talking this whole time. That's the point. Unknown Speaker 27:56 But Unknown Speaker 27:58 God, God, I talk so much sometimes. But anyway, so I brought you on. Unknown Speaker 28:05 It's easy job. It's an easy job for you. Yeah, you're making this really easy for me. Yeah, I do have a question, though. And yeah, you know, I know the research on Chagas is extremely limited, Unknown Speaker 28:20 and because of that, you know, there's, there's this rule that I've heard a lot of people say, of you know, if you find Chaga only harvest half of it, Unknown Speaker 28:31 you know. And I've seen other papers that have, you know, with with other kind of fleshy vicity of mycotoxin mushrooms, that showed that it doesn't matter if you harvest the whole flush of mushrooms, it does nothing to the next flesh because of the underground mycelium network. And it doesn't matter if you just pick it or chop it with a knife, it just go all day. You know that's that's pretty resilient, yeah, yeah. And I don't know if it's, I would assume it's the same with Chaga, you know, you, I think even more so I know that a lot of people, I think it's a very, it's like, Chaga, like, is, is this mushroom that is shrouded in mystery. I can't think of another mushroom that's more shrouded in mystery than Chaga. Do you know what I mean? It's like, it's like, this weird entity, I don't know how to describe it. So it's like, got all this like, weird Heebie Jeebie energy around it, because it's just this weird thing that we don't know a lot about. So, you know, people will often say, yeah, like, you were saying, like, you know, don't harvest Unknown Speaker 29:51 too much of it. Don't harvest the whole thing of Chaga. Like, you're gonna, like, you know, you gotta conserve Chaga. And you. Unknown Speaker 30:00 Think those are those can be misinformed statements, because that's not the fruit body of the fungus. However, I do think that those statements can be quite reasonable because we don't understand what it is doing. Yeah, exactly yet. So I think it's I, personally, I, if I ever see it, I still don't harvest all of it, because, also, it's, it's not mine. Unknown Speaker 30:26 Yeah, I feel bad taking a lot, like I have to leave some stuff behind. I think that's just like, you know, you got to respect the the tree and the forest. And, you know, we wouldn't be happy if someone came to your house and picked all of you, you know, Unknown Speaker 30:42 so I feel like leave a little behind, just out of the maybe, I feel like this just out of, like, you know, like, I think principle, but like, scientifically, it's not really, it's, if anything, I have this theory, I'll just throw it out there. But it's just a theory like this is not based in anything other than my own brain, but basically that when you harvest Chaga, so it has it melon and, like, black melonized exterior. So when you, when you harvest it, and you expose some of the it's not fleshy, but it's, it's much more quirky and soft. And I could definitely see an insect just like coming over, giving it a munch, and flying over somewhere else and maybe munching other trees or whatever. You know, I think this is a theory, but Chaga could potentially act as some sort of intermediary, asexual propagule of the fungus. Because, right, some, but that's just the theory I'm that would have to be tested. Like, I have no idea, but it's just something I've thought about. What could it be used for? Like, for why was why would it want to produce this type of thing? Unknown Speaker 31:56 Yeah, but that could be a possibility. I mean, very well, like when I so I isolate it from the wild and I grow it out in my lab. So right now, I only have four strains of it that I've been able to culture successfully. It's a little finicky to culture, but you can do it. So if anyone wants to go out and get a strain of Chaga, you can, you can culture it, but I'd recommend that you probably the conch. Yeah, yeah, you can filter it. And I thought for the longest time it was like, I was told it was dead or something, which is not true. No, it's definitely full of mycelium. And you can very well, like, you can go out in the field, find a chunk of it, bring it back. You can put it, usually, I just say, put it in the freezer right away. Just, it's not going to kill it or anything. It just, it keeps it alive, if any. And you just can come back later, and you can shave off some pieces. And usually I would cut them up and use sterilized, like, like scalpel and stuff, and cut at it, you know, shave at it, and get, like, little chunks, like, I don't know, maybe, like, half a centimeter ish, and just I would give them a little, just little spritz of alcohol, and kind of get them wet. And then I have, you know, a flow hood in my lab. So I just leave them to dry in the flow hood for a while, until they're fully dry. And then I inoculate like five agar plates with like five pieces of Chaga just to increase my chances. And sometimes, if you're lucky, it'll grow from all the pieces all at once, and my ceiling grows out really well. Unknown Speaker 33:30 But other times you like, have to, like, do some like isolating and like cutting around the piece and transferring it, and like trying to avoid other things. Generally, if you're growing Chaga, go after the slow growing fungi, if you've seen it, and growing quick, it's not chugga, it's great. Covers the plate in like three days. That's, that's not, Unknown Speaker 33:48 that's some sort of Vasco, or maybe even like a, like a zygomyse or something. Unknown Speaker 33:54 But, yeah, anyway, so yeah, you can culture these things. It's really easy, but, Unknown Speaker 34:00 and, yeah, you said you fruited it in vitro, right? Yeah, yeah, a lot. Like, a lot of times, what is like, does it cover the entire Petri plate? Oh, dude, his fruiting characteristics are weird. It, like, it like, sometimes it'll, like, form on the lid. Or, usually, yeah, it forms on the lid a lot, really, and also it generally forms on the margin of the agar plate. So it forms on the plastic. Doesn't but sometimes it will form directly on the agar surface, but a lot of the time it forms like on the plastic. It's so weird. Whoa, wait. What does it do in does it do that with the bark? Does it do the same thing? Or, no. I mean, it like, it fruits like, I mean, kind of like, just on, like, not so much on the bark, because the barks open, so it's kind of more, I guess, fruits kind of off the cambium, or just above the cambium, but it would be dead at that point. Yeah. Unknown Speaker 35:00 Yeah, so, Unknown Speaker 35:03 yeah, anyway, Unknown Speaker 35:05 yeah, it kind of fruits like it has very weird fruiting characteristics, like, but what's great, though, is that what I tested with this preliminary experiment I did was I Unknown Speaker 35:17 got it in Unknown Speaker 35:19 the petri dishes. Some of them are horizontal. Some of them were vertical. Because I was like, this thing likes to grow vertically. It grows on a on a vertical substrate. So I was like, let's try to orient the petri dishes vertically. So I did that. Unknown Speaker 35:36 Didn't do any like, I put them in the in the light. I have them on all these different plates, tons of different media I developed and tried to use, and Unknown Speaker 35:47 nothing happened for like, two months. And then right before I was gonna leave for an excursion to the jungle, it decided to just pop off. And I was like, God damn you Unknown Speaker 35:59 but it was so it was so cool, though. So basically, what I was able to do was, like, I had these things, like my little children. I had all these, like, Chaga fruiting bodies, like, like, I had quite a few of them, I think probably, like I read my experiment I ran had like, 324 Unknown Speaker 36:17 350 petri dishes in it. So there was a lot so I, you know, so I probably got like, you know, like, of the data that I collect, like the sport I so I collect the sports from these things, obviously, and of the ones that I printed and collected data for, it was like, think I had, like, I only did of like, I think six or seven, but I think now I have checking again, I probably have like, around like 2550 Unknown Speaker 36:47 probably like 25 cultures for me, yeah, 25 to 30 of those, because a lot of them didn't like yield anything. And were they all different media? Or, yeah, yeah. So they were different. So really, the things I was looking at some I'm hoping to run some different experiments. It was kind of like this, like, big, like, let's just, like, inoculate, like, a bunch of plates with Chaga and see what happens. Kind of deal like, and, I mean, like, I developed, like, a birch medium using birch wood and malt extract, you may get a chaga tea medium. So I like made chaga tea, and I like made in agar with it. So I just used it in place of water, just to see if it, you know, it liked growing on itself. And then, not really, actually, yeah. But yeah, you know, a bunch of anti fungal was in there, yeah, but it did okay, but yeah, not, not that I didn't like it that much it had so it looks really beautiful animal. Yeah, I know, I know. I forced it. I forced it to eat itself. And especially, I felt bad because I knew which strain that it was. So I felt really bad for that string. And I was like, I'm sorry, Unknown Speaker 38:04 daddy Chaga, sorry, Unknown Speaker 38:07 I'm sorry. I have to feed you to yourself right now. But anyway, so like, because I had a bunch of this one fruiting body, so I was hoping, or this one sclerotia or whatever. So I was hoping that maybe on the one that it like knew of like that gets from the familiar strain that maybe would like fruit more. Because I, my theory was that maybe because when it fruits, like, the Chaga is on the tree, so, like, it's around, and the Mycelium is, like, decaying and like, so I was like, maybe it likes fruiting like on Chaga, Unknown Speaker 38:34 so, as I thought, but it didn't actually, and then it didn't like fruiting on the birch that much. And I also tested one media that goes crazy, carrots. Loves it. Loves Wait, what? Chaga loves carrots. Oh, yeah. Unknown Speaker 38:53 So what is this? A normal substrate for fungi, or you're just in your fridge and you're like, I have some extra carrots. No, it's like, the medium. It's a medium that's been used, yeah, like, mainly for the height, like, I've heard of it being used for the high mando catasi, which is the family that Chagas in loves. They love, great. Why do you think so? I have no idea. Like, it's good for us. Maybe it's good for them too. I'm not a like, you know, like, feel like, these days, a lot of mycologists are, like, chemists, like, you know what I mean, like, and everyone's like, Oh, what compounds are being produced? Like, by what thing? And I'm, I find that stuff incredibly interesting, and I'm learning. I'm trying to learn about everything slowly, but, you know, you can only go so quick. Unknown Speaker 39:37 But like, I'm not by any means. Like, I like looking at the things and, you know, but the chem, the chemistry, I think, is, obviously, it's incredibly important, and it's something that you need to, like, I find when you're doing your research, you're going to hit a roadblock, or you need to learn a bit of chemistry, or you're going to get to learn a bit of this, and then you do and then you get better at it, and that's, like, it's, I'm just. Unknown Speaker 40:00 A grad student. So I'm just, like, slowly accumulating knowledge, and I'm in this pocket right now Unknown Speaker 40:07 of just kind of like, really, like, I feel like what I learned was just kind of this focus on the organism itself. Like, how does it reproduce? How does it do this? How does it do this? Like, how, like, what are the clamp connections doing? What are all these things different doing? And like these different things doing? And that's kind of what I'm more concerned with. I like your carrots. You take the carrot, sorry, Unknown Speaker 40:34 so you have this agar, yeah? What do you throw the carrots in a blender and just throw it, yeah? Mea, like a 1960s blender we got in the lab. Wow. And then Chaga loves it. That's great. I would love it. Yeah, yeah, exactly No. It's pretty it's pretty cool. It's, like, it grows like gangbusters on the stuff. It's crazy. That's why I'm, like, the fruit on it very well, oh, oh, it just, just the Mycelium is really fast. Like, it's vegetatively, which makes sense. You got it. Like, when the fungi got good food, they get lazy and fat and just, like, hang around and not like to do anything, because they're the parents. Like, why do I need to have kids? Like, this is so comfy. Like, I don't need to do that. Like, you know, I can just stay in this vegetative state until I decide maybe one day to fruit. You know, they're stoned off to the carrots. They're a couch. Yeah, exactly, yeah, exactly, yeah. Okay. What else besides carrots? Was there something that you found, maybe not just for fruiting Unknown Speaker 41:42 malt extract. Man, like, just standards, yeah, standard media, it's like, so this is what I'm trying to do with this work. Is like, it's really easy. Like, I think Chaga has the potential Unknown Speaker 41:56 to become a model organism Unknown Speaker 41:59 for studying weird mating systems, because this one has a weird one, and I'll talk about it in a sec here. But I you know, basically you can keep these things alive in a dish for like a months, like, if you really just keep them hydrated. Like I started doing this thing where I was so basically, what I wanted to look at is looking at the spores and how the nuclear number of the spores varies over time. So what I'm doing is is, is printing them on tinfoil, sterilized tinfoil, and then removing the tinfoil, folding it up, putting it away. And I usually just keep them in the fridge after they've been dried for a sec, and then I just keep printing every day. And I did that for a month for seven strains, or seven individuals, or, I guess, replicates, as some of them were individuals, some of them are replicates of different individuals. But anyway, and yeah, so I that's you can just, like, I take the dish and I just squirt it with like, a sterile pipette and just give it a little water. Just like, whenever it looked to me like it needed some, like, usually, sometimes every day. Unknown Speaker 43:14 And then I'll be like, Ah, it's getting, like, the sport prints have been kind of moist lately, like, there's like, water droplets on the spore print. So I'm like, I probably can, like, let it dry out for a little, and then, oh, when the agar starts peeling off the side of the dish, I had more. And you can just, like, keep them alive. And they just keep and they spoil it like crazy. Like, so much. Like, I remember, like, going to look at a sport print, like, when I was TAing one time, and I came back and, like, readjusted it slightly, and it was another sport print in like an hour. It like, it's sport prints, like crazy. So it's, like, really interesting, like, manipulating, like a live, like high medium, which is like the sporulating surface of a mushroom, just like manipulating one, because it's like this, it's like, flat and porous and anything, just like, it's weird. It's really cool to work with. You just feed it carrots and spray it with water. Yeah, exactly Unknown Speaker 44:08 does what you want it to so, yeah, no, it's, it's all it needs. Unknown Speaker 44:14 But, but anyway, no, it's, it's really cool. Unknown Speaker 44:19 So now I have like, trillions of spores in a fridge right now, just waiting to be examined. I'm looking, I'm getting some I'm going to be using some fluorescent micros microscopes to do that, so staining the nuclei inside the spores. So the reason why I'm doing that whole thing with them is because that paper that was published from Yangtze province, I think it's Yangtze University Unknown Speaker 44:47 in China, Unknown Speaker 44:50 they basically so they did, like a preliminary study. So when this paper came out, it kind of crushed my hopes and dreams for like about a week, because. Unknown Speaker 45:00 It was literally my project, like, when it came out, I was developing this project, and then this team of like five PhDs, like, made a Chaga paper, but it's written in, I think it's in Mandarin, so it's, Unknown Speaker 45:15 you know, it's, so what I'm doing right now is kind of the first of in the English language. So I think that's also very valuable. And I'm kind of not so much. They kind of did a broader study, and they didn't really dive as much into certain details of things, but they did a very like, they identified like, like, kind of the matte gene, which is like the mating gene, and they wanted to see, like, where it was and what genes were present to kind of inform mating systems, which is something I will hopefully do in the future. At this point, I like, there's no one here like this, all this stuff, like mating system stuff is like over most people's heads at the school. So I'd have to go somewhere else and work with experts to do more work. But Unknown Speaker 46:01 anyway, so what they found, well, the things that I'm the most interested about in their findings is that they found the spores to have zero nuclei in them to four. So huge variation and the amount of nuclei in a spore. So typically, most mushrooms have a single nucleus. Sometimes they're going to be two as well. So there are, there are two spored So there are types of mushrooms that. So there's the basidium, and then the stermata, which are the little prongs that hold the spores. Typically there'll be four. There can be variations on this number, this can be up to one, sometimes eight, you know. But anyway, so typically there's like, there's the four, and then there's the four mitotic products migrate into each Spore, and then you have four different nuclei and all those spores. Unknown Speaker 46:59 But in this case, Unknown Speaker 47:01 yeah, four to different nuclei, but one nucleus per sport. But in this case, you have, sometimes you can have spores that have tetranucleate characteristics, which is like pretty wacko for the decidio mycotoxin. Unknown Speaker 47:16 So I mean, what I looked at, I've been digging in the literature to find any information on other Tetra nuclear decidu myce and I, so far, I think I found two. I think there's like a Pacino mycet, so like a rust. I think it's like a garlic rust or something. It generally has, like a tetranucleate Spore, and then a single lacria in Australia, I think it can sometimes have a single sterigmate. Think that's the right word. Unknown Speaker 47:48 Basically a basidium with a single Mata and a single basidious board and has four inside it. But in this case, Chaga, like, yes, weird. Like, what is what does that do? I know when that so say a spore with four nuclei lands, yeah, and interacts with another Spore. Like, why would I have four Unknown Speaker 48:12 that's the question for the fungus, and they are not talking. They cannot be on the mushroom revival podcast, but Unknown Speaker 48:20 that'd be the best guest have on lacaria from Australia. That makes for us well, but anyway, I did read an article that AI is, is figuring out how to not only read our dreams, but project them. You know, we're figuring out whale language. So yes, that is true, yeah. So one day, one day. But yeah, anyway, Unknown Speaker 48:45 the reasons i They can be wide ranging. I mean, you know, basically, like, so there's a lot of questions, like, when there's a Tetra nuclear Spore? Like, do they are those the four recombinants from the meiosis where the spores are the nuclear spores are made. Or this the nuclei within the spores are produced. Is that all four of them? Is it shooting out its full genetic suite in a package because it wants to? Unknown Speaker 49:19 Or is it a post mitotic mitosis, which basically, this happens a lot, which is where the dude, you could just say all the buzzwords, and I would be like, Yeah, dude, yes. Unknown Speaker 49:36 So yep, that sounds right. Unknown Speaker 49:40 The spore will migrate, or the nucleus will migrate into the spore from the basidium, and then it will mitotically divide in the spore. So that can happen sometimes, sometimes that can happen in the basidium, Unknown Speaker 49:57 where the there's a mitosis. Unknown Speaker 50:00 And then they'll divide again. Sometimes I think they like migrate in and out of the basidium and the spore. They like go back and forth. I'm learning about there's so many things I'm learning about them so, but it can do some wonky stuff. Unknown Speaker 50:15 But basically, with Chaga, I have, like, no idea what's happening. So, basically, Unknown Speaker 50:23 so Unknown Speaker 50:25 you're not alone. So, so basically, like, what I want to do for this study is Unknown Speaker 50:33 basically just examine, like, all these spores and look at them and develop like, kind of like and like, I did this over I support put to them, like, once every day, pretty much for a month. So I want to see over time how the nuclear number changes, and do a statistical analysis, because I can inform a lot about what they're doing. And that's kind of, I think, some important groundwork that can be laid down. So that's what I'd like to do with my grad research and a lot of money. So I think it should, it should be pretty, pretty good. Unknown Speaker 51:08 But Unknown Speaker 51:09 yeah, man, no, it's pretty crazy. Yeah, this the whole family that chalk is in. Its mating system has not really been looked at at all because they don't have clamp connections. And clamp connections have been like the Holy Grail of mushroom. Meeting studies for like, what is connection? So clamp connection, for other people that don't, yeah, I know what it is. But for other, Unknown Speaker 51:36 clamp connection is, is found on on the city of mycelium, generally. So mushrooms growing fungi and allies sometimes. Unknown Speaker 51:48 But basically what it is is this little like when a mushroom is like, just grows as what we call a carry on, or a monocaryon. It's just a single, you know, nucleus just being a wiggly worm, just like not having a buddy hang out with, you know? And then there's another little mycelium that's also has no clamp connection. So what clamp connections are is they form on a septum, but I'll get to that in a sec. But they interact, and then they change nuclei, and then from there on, once they exchange nuclei and they're compatible, then the clamp forms at every SEPTA. So every time the mushroom or the mycelium, or the single hyphae, to be more exact, will extend, the new clamp connection will be laid down. And what's happening there? There's a lot of debate about what the clamps for. There's actually a new thing I'll present that's that's the new paper that's come out, but I can't access it. I've been trying to, but I've only had the abstract, but it's been pretty good. But anyway, so one thing that it's been described as, or how I learned about it, was that, basically, when the the two nuclei in the hyphae divide Unknown Speaker 53:04 from the them fusing the the clamp connection basically leapfrogs the nuclei back. It like jumps them back. So what it does is it, it basically like segregates out the divisions so they like the so say, like, nucleus a and b are together, and then when they divide in the clamp connection, like, I think the b1 will, like, shoot in the clamp so it like, shoots up in the clamp cell, and like, Retrogrades back into the previous cell. So it's like, it like, pretty much just, like, makes the nuclei kind of like, have a little game, and they just, like, jump around so, like, so a theory is, like, they, like, segregates them out, basically, like, that's one concept. And then I think another one I was reading was that, because the hyphas so so narrow, the clamp connection, like, gives them more room to divide, and they can divide and move around more freely. And then the latest one that I saw, which I think super cool, is that sometimes, like mushrooms. I've been reading about this stuff, it's been pretty fascinating, but the mushroom will select at the level of the mycelium and also at the level of the nucleus. So what, what it's, what? One thing they think that it's doing is that when there's a moment when the nucleus is in the clamp, just like above the mycelium, kind of like forming the clamp, that it's monokaryotic, so it's, it's, it's alone for a sec. And what they think is happening is that they're having, like, this moment of Unknown Speaker 54:42 of not fusing and then fusing back together, and fusing and then not fusing, and then fusing and not fusing, and just like constantly checking the fitness of the nuclei, which is like, pretty cool, so that that's something, if I understood it correctly, you. Unknown Speaker 55:00 I think that's what they're trying to explain. So that's what they postulate. What if they just love water slides and they just love having fun? Maybe they're just silly little guys and they love having fun and they love going on water slides? Yeah? So it's yeah, it's like their theory works, you know? Yeah, exactly. So, yeah, no, they're pretty weird structures that I think we don't know a whole lot about, but we're starting to learn more about what they could do. Unknown Speaker 55:30 And the thing that's crazy about why Chaga is hard and has no work on the mating system is because it doesn't have clamp connections. So historically, like things like split Gill, like the and she's like a schizophylum community, or whatever they've had Unknown Speaker 55:48 commune. The way you pronounce that fungus is great. It's actually, I kind of started strong. You're about to say, I know your way, and then you finished your way. Yeah, I'll say it. Should I say schizophren Unknown Speaker 56:04 community? Wow, but anyway, Unknown Speaker 56:09 but we had some good laughs in Ecuador with that name. Oh, absolutely, yeah, no, but I was I gonna say yeah. So those ones like, those are, like the model organisms. So they've been studied to hell. You know, they've been looked at a ton, and they have clamp connection. So people have it were really easy to, like, look at them and understand that mating stuff, because they could look and be like, oh, a clamp form. That means that it was a successful pairing, or, like, a clamp almost formed. So that's called a pseudo clamp. So the B factor in mating, which is like this, couple different factors involved, dictates the hook cell fusion, so the clamp fusion. So you can find these things called pseudo clamps, so they're like not fully fused to the hyphae. And so I did a mating study here with schizophren When my undergrad and we just did it for a course. Unknown Speaker 57:02 But anyway, so the and those have been studied a lot, and clamp mushrooms have been studied a lot more than clampless ones, because clampless ones, like Chaga and the whole hymenocotacy and other types of fungi, which I can't think of right now, Unknown Speaker 57:19 don't have clamps. So their their mating systems aren't very well studied, because there aren't very easy to do. So at one point, my advisor, when I said I wanted to and I was able to fruit this thing in a dish, it was like, I couldn't believe I was able to do it. And I was like, Oh, I can. I can do a mating study on this now. And he's like, Oh, you can just stay in the nuclei and count how many there are per cell. And, like, if there's two it's dikaryotic, like, in like, that's good. And that's what I thought for a while. And then I read in the literature, and, like, this whole thing about, oh, there's two nuclei, and each cell compartment is a lie. It's like, so, like, it's, it's, it's true. I think it's true in the case of sound fungi. But when you look at a lot of fungi like they're the cells are multinucleate, so they can have like, 345678, Unknown Speaker 58:08 10 nuclei inside a cell. So like and often, the amount of nuclei in a cell does not differ if it's if it's an unmated mycelium or a mated mycelium. So there's no way of telling, by looking at the mycelium and clampless species most of the time, like, if the nuclei or like, it's like a monokaryotic or dikaryotic culture, like, you can't tell. So you need some other work. And I think what would be cool is like eventually being able to, like, say, like, identify the individual genotypes of each nucleus. And then I think that the death cap guy kind of did something like that. I'm sorry, I can't remember his name right Unknown Speaker 58:53 now, but he, he, I think he developed like something to be able to identify individual genotypes in a height and a mycelium, which I think I would need to do to, like, because, like, if a Tetra nuclear spore germinates, you know, is that four different genotypes? Is that two of the same genotype that are just, like, there are two of each. So it's like, there's just a million questions, like, all the time, and I go crazy thinking about it. Luckily, I've just confined myself to looking at spores. So I'm in my little spore town, and it sits happy there. So I have an extremely rudimentary understanding of fungal taxonomy and mating systems. Yeah, and the yen Yang Wang. Who or Wang was the guy on the podcast talking about the death caps. And the second I did that podcast, I realized I know absolutely nothing about it. Yeah, and and then talking to you now it's just a greater Unknown Speaker 59:59 thank you for how. Unknown Speaker 1:00:00 Bullying me because I just making me realize that I need to explore this more. And, and, oh yeah, it's and it's also amazing to hear you say that you don't know what's going on. But yeah, yeah. It's just, it's amazing studying fungi that the more, the more you dive in, the more you realize you don't know a thing about anything, which is great, Unknown Speaker 1:00:25 but basically, my rudimentary understanding is that nuclei, there's two nuclei that come together, and each nuclei carry 50% of the DNA responsible to make a new fruiting body, or that's kind of the general Unknown Speaker 1:00:44 thing, yeah, maybe in bocero mycotoxin. Unknown Speaker 1:00:47 Is that semi accurate for like, in general, in general, yeah, I'm sure there's a million exceptions, generally, like a single nucleus, most of the time, Unknown Speaker 1:00:59 is half the genome, and the full genome is when there are two nuclei. But I don't there's something that tells me that that's not always the case. And looking at these fungi, but generally, like, like, you know, some fungi there, like the like, the unisex reality in the death cap, I think what he was explaining was a form of homothalism. So that means, from a single Thallus, a Thallus is a body, so a fungal body, a single fungal body. So I think what he was explaining, you know, and I get kind of bogged down in the the molecular terms, but I think Unknown Speaker 1:01:40 there was like, Unknown Speaker 1:01:42 basically, it was able to truly reproduce from a single nucleus, Unknown Speaker 1:01:47 but, Unknown Speaker 1:01:49 but basically, the chaga doesn't do that. It's actually, it actually does something different. It can reproduce from a single Spore, so, but with any nuclei, but with many nuclei inside and and actually, so that's called sumo pseudo homothalism. So it's not true homothalism, but it looks like it, because it's fruiting from one Spore, but it's actually a pre packaged heterocarion in one sport. So, and it can so, so Chaga can reproduce from one spore and up to up to what four Unknown Speaker 1:02:25 generally recording does study from wangsu University, yeah, but I, I want to learn more about it. So yeah, that's basically what it does. And it also, not only does it reproduce just by having the two sport thing, but it's also doing something called amphithalism, which is how it can reproduce from a single Spore. And also, if it wants, it can make a spore with a single nucleus, and then that single nucleus can, like, behave like normal mushroom mycelium, and like cross with other ones. So it can, it can both fruit from a single Spore. For perseverance, because it fruits so rarely, I hypothesize that it wants to be able to fruit from a single Spore. That seems like a good genetic thing to want to have. If you fruit sometimes, once every 80 years. That's probably not a bad idea to be able to fruit from one seed. But for genetic diversity, it can, like, shoot out these multinuclear spores and then also shoot like, here's one with a single nucleus, so maybe it'll encounter another mycelium. And also, there are things called the Bueller phenomenon, where monocarians can interact nuts, diary ons, and then they can exchange nuclei to them. And it's like. So it's like, even if it interacts with them, with a fertile mycelium, it can still probably gain nuclear material from it. So it's like, it's so cool. It's like, say, the spore that has four nuclei in it, yeah, Unknown Speaker 1:03:53 does it change the fruiting body compared to, say, two Unknown Speaker 1:03:58 or one? Unknown Speaker 1:04:00 Like, if they're, like, I mean, and sometimes it can raise none, sometimes the sports have, they're just, like, an empty spore sack. They're just, so, like, I mean, it, like, in some species, it like they have, like, like some that have two nuclei that have, like, two stergma and then those nuclei. So then, instead of having the four spores, they have two with two nuclei inside. So, like in some cases, yes, it can change the fruit body and the or, more, particularly the basidium. So not so much the macro morphology, but the microscopically it can change. Unknown Speaker 1:04:34 But yeah, man, no, it's, it's a crazy thing, and pseudo 1000 is like, my my bread and butter, I'm learning about it. And it's weird because, oh man, it's like, it's so crazy. It's like, it like, it's and also they find that the nuclei, like, migrate into into spores, because theoretically they should only be able to germinate, like, not that much of the time. But they actually. Unknown Speaker 1:05:00 Like, germinate and form fruit bodies like, 90% of the time. So there's, it's not a random migration of nuclei hoping that they get, like, two compatible ones in a spore. They they do it like they have intention to, like, get fertile spores. So I think it has something to do with spindles, spindle alignment and, like, all this stuff like I, I'm, I'm still learning about all that, but it's not random. Generally, I think that's what is being theorized, is it's not random. I think that's been a theorized since, like, the 80s, but, yeah, no, it's wacko. So say, a spore with four nuclei lands next to another compatible spore with other four nuclei would they fuse? And would all four fuse? Or only two before or the eight? Well, I mean, this is all theoretically, like a fours, like spored mycelium with four different genotypes. That's so, like, I need to to work about that. Like, I don't know what's going on if, like, usually there would be, like, two genotypes, but so sometimes, yeah, so like, sometimes you'll, you'll have it where, I'm pretty sure, like, if, like, there's a, like, a dikeric mycelium that's interacted by like, another mycelium. And if some are compatible, but some aren't, I think sometimes they'll exchange nuclei, but only the compatible ones, or sometimes not at all. It's like, Dude, I remember I read this book by I think his name's David Moore. I think M, O, M, O, O, R, E is his last name. Unknown Speaker 1:06:35 He's great. Check him out. But he basically just like went on for a whole chapter about all these exceptions to the rule and fungal mating. And basically what he said is, like Unknown Speaker 1:06:48 something along the lines of, you basically just want you to understand that there are no rules to this Unknown Speaker 1:06:56 which there aren't. It seems like the further and further I go, the more and more like, it started off being like, oh, it's going to be a simple project. You're just going to, like, look at this hyphae and know what they are immediately. But no, and not at all. It's like, it's like, I It's so cool. And it's like, so to kind of tie it all together, like, you know, going out in the field and looking at the mushrooms, and, like, collecting, you know, hundreds of them, if you can, and then also going into the lab and looking at one organism, one strain of an organism, and then looking further into it. And I think that can inform so much, and can give you this, like, broader understanding of like, when you look at a mushroom like, you don't just see the cap and the gills, and you see the nuclei inside. And then when you get into molecular stuff, you see the DNA inside, and it just like keeps going in. Unknown Speaker 1:07:52 But like, getting that, you know, broad, Unknown Speaker 1:07:56 look at the mushroom itself. And then also this very focused in look at a single organism like you could become if you were locked away in a prison cell and they gave you a single mushroom to look at, and all the possible mushroom literature you could find, you could learn so much about mycology by looking at this one mushroom, you know. So I think, like it's cool in mycology, I think to take to go along the idea of a bottom up approach. So looking at learning about what these are, what, because it can be very overwhelming to look at this kingdom and the families inside and be like, Oh my God. Like, this is, this is huge, like, but then I've been finding much more peace with like, going out and learning about things and learning about what they are, and then going up from there, like, extrapolating, like, information from the individual genus or species that I'm looking at, and then being like, oh, like, Where does this lie in the kingdom? As opposed to being like, this kingdom, I need to learn all the things, which is, like, typically, an edge in, like, formal education. That's how things are taught. It's not so much thought about looking at the individual and then learning how it relates to others. So that's so below, or Yeah, as a below, so above, yeah, yeah. So I find that's been a way that I found took me a while to call myself a mycologist and find peace and studying the mushrooms, because it's it can be. It was very overwhelming. I used to get like, kind of angry at myself, to like, feel like I didn't know enough, or I couldn't know more you can all and then eventually discovering that you can only learn so much and just learn at the pace you want. And yeah, anyway, love yourself. Unknown Speaker 1:09:41 Yeah, so I Unknown Speaker 1:09:46 You're one of the best mushroom photographers I've ever met. Thank you, and it was awesome to see the photo stacking in Ecuador. And I'm just curious, Unknown Speaker 1:09:56 do you have any mushroom photography tips for people? Unknown Speaker 1:10:00 Oh, okay, so I mean, Unknown Speaker 1:10:04 like, Well, I've been, like, learning. So I went really, like, the last like, two years, is probably when I've been really getting into it. So I went the first time I met Alan Rockefeller was at a photography course Madeline Island, and I learned a lot from that. So a lot of what I learned now comes from Alan's brain and but also, also, like, just a good brain being out in the field myself. But basically what I what I learned, I would say, what are some some tips? I mean, I guess I could talk about like focus stacking for a sec. So what focus stacking is, for those who aren't familiar, is kind of, I think the new way we should start doing field photography for mushrooms in particular, gets a little bit more difficult plants sometimes, like I find like the shrubby ones, like I was trying to take a photograph of an alder or a hazel, a beak Hazel that's flowering in the spring, a flower early spring. So I ended up actually just taking a single shot of this, because it moves around so much with the wind. But with mushrooms, unless they're like thin Stipe, they kind of they stay pretty, pretty centered, and they don't really move much. It's rather great to photograph. But anyway, so with, with, with focus stacking Unknown Speaker 1:11:29 is, is you can do it manually, or ideally within a camera, and you take, basically, you can program your camera to take us. Pretty much, I like to, I like to talk, think of it as, like, a scan of a mushroom. Basically, you're, you're getting your camera to take every like, little frame in focus of the whole mushroom. So often, when I started doing mushroom photography, you would, you would be like, Oh, I really want to get, like, the gills in focus, but odd, the caps in focus. And, oh, you know. So then you're like, looking on Instagram. You're like, how do these people get these, like, super sharp images of mushrooms, and then focus stacking hits you? And you're like, what's this? I remember I was watching, like some the first time I heard about it was obviously this video with Alan. I think it was with Alan and Unknown Speaker 1:12:20 Joey from crime pace with bounty. Doesn't who I love. I love the both of them. But, and they were doing, I think, their intro to feel of mycology video or something. And he was with Alan and Lera, like, looking at stuff. And he's like, Yeah, I'm just focus stacking it. This is, like, the first time I ever saw, like, this whole thing with Alan. Like, you know, I call it the Rockefeller fever. Sometimes it's like, Oh, yeah. Like, it's like, it's the first time I saw this, like, all the whole I nodding in the DNA. I was like, what? And then I saw him focus stacking, and Unknown Speaker 1:12:53 I was like, Whoa, that's that's so cool. He's like, Yeah. Like, I'm just taking like, 35 images at once, and then compile them. And yeah, it's, it's, it's kind of the it's a game changer, essentially. So, Unknown Speaker 1:13:10 yeah, I guess, like, you know, some tips would be, Unknown Speaker 1:13:16 if you want to do it manually so your camera doesn't have it, you can actually do it just fine, but it's not as good if you just, like take individual photos on your camera and move your focus ring and it's it can be a little shaky, but Unknown Speaker 1:13:33 if you just move really gently, you can get away with it. You could also use a rail so you can advance your camera like you can move it closer or further away from your subject to focus it. So that works too, but ideally, I find a lot of newer cameras these days have the focus stacking. I personally shoot on Fujifilm, which not a lot of stackers use, but I think some some do. And I think, are you a stacker? Stacker? Dude? Do you even stack from Unknown Speaker 1:14:03 but I think, yeah, I think a lot of people these days, that's funny. Use Olympus, but I find Fuji works good for me, so I use that. And I don't know, try to, you know, like, make sure. I think the most important the enemy to focus stacking is what's called dappled light, so light that's coming in from different areas. So try to like, like shroud your mushroom from light coming from other directions. And yeah, and that's a really good way. Also, you can use like, natural light or LED light. For the longest time, I just used led only, like I would always illuminate with LED, like, all the time. Unknown Speaker 1:14:49 But now I find like, what Alan, I actually like I learned from Alan, like he was like, it's nice to take pictures of natural light too. So you can take natural light Photos. Unknown Speaker 1:15:00 But it's nice to have the LED ones. When it's like, really dark, you're in like, a dark forest, or it's actually nighttime, then you kind of only, you can only use those lights. And sometimes it's like, and they give you different qualities. I find, using natural light and artificial light, you get different qualities of the mushroom. So it's nice to take pictures using both types of light. Unknown Speaker 1:15:24 And yeah, no, Unknown Speaker 1:15:27 and I find like, I don't know, Unknown Speaker 1:15:32 yeah, and file management is so important with photography, something I've learned I'm only starting to get better with. So for those that want to start shooting more pictures of mushrooms and keep them organized, that's, I think that's probably one of the most important things I could share, as someone who's dealt with 1000s of files, especially when you focus stack, sometimes you end up with, you know, a stack like the I took a focus stack of the chaga fruit body in The wild, and it's like this, like 30 centimeter trunk or larger, I think it was like 50 centimeters. Unknown Speaker 1:16:06 And it you could tell I'm Canadian, Unknown Speaker 1:16:11 but, but anyway, so I don't know how many inches, like 12 inches, like 1215, inches, or whatever, and how many ice skates is that Unknown Speaker 1:16:22 I I don't know, Unknown Speaker 1:16:25 but anyway, so a couple of pints of maple syrup. Yeah, one or two, yeah, one or two, yeah. But anyway, and then I did a focus stack along the entirety of the trunk, because I wanted to get the whole fruit body and focus. And it's like a long so, like, usually when you're focused stacking mushrooms and, like, say, there's two, you want to try to orient your scene so that they're kind of on a similar plane, so that you don't, like, end up getting these really kind of deep focus stacks. So you want to try to orient them so they're generally parallel, as close as you can. But in this case, I did it. I knew I was gonna, like, go deep, stacking deep. So I took, like, I think the stack was like, 450 Unknown Speaker 1:17:13 images. It was so many pictures, but it resulted in an amazing image. So yeah, keeping your files organized. And different cameras, I think will, like, take a stack and, like, put them in a folder, which is so nice. I wish my camera did that, but it doesn't do that. So you get all these pictures. And sometimes, if you like, take another stack, and you forget to, like, sometimes you got to put your hand in front of the lens and take a single shot to shot to, like, mark that the stack is over. But sometimes you forget to do that, and you're like, kind of rushing in a field. You're like, whatever I gotta, I gotta get these pictures. And then you just got all these hundreds of files, and just like, you don't know when they start or end, and you have to, like, look through all them individually. Like, Oh, I think it focused a bit back on this one. So I start here and like, so just like, I don't know, I honestly file management for digital cameras. I know, actually my partner shoots on film, so she doesn't experience any of those issues, which is nice, you know. And, yeah, but anyway, yeah, Unknown Speaker 1:18:21 photos, you don't stack your pinhole camera. Oh, dude, I've actually thought of this. I've definitely thought of like, mounting a film camera on a tripod and, like, getting a nice macro shot and, like, and stacking, like a roll of film. Like, I think it's so cool. That's like, how you would any other camera. You just like, take all the pictures. So you just like, yeah, just like, take all your shots on the film camera of the thing, and you, and I think, just use like, 36 shots on a roll of film or something, which is enough for a decent focus stack. And you develop them, you get them back, and then put it in Helicon focus and try to get a stack out of them. And get, like, the most, you turn those into a digital Yeah, or do it manually, like, get it like scalpel and, like, cut out all the infocus bits and, like, glue them together, yeah, yeah. I was entering, like, in the dark room, you know, in those Unknown Speaker 1:19:21 or you could God, that would be crazy. Someone's got to do it now. Someone's gonna do exactly no and I want to do the most expensive focus stack ever. Should make a real about it or something. Feel like I'd go viral. I'm just kidding. I don't know. The algorithm works in mysterious ways. It does. Yeah, I was actually just having that conversation with my mom today about how weird things going viral is, especially for her, like not having a concept of virality, you know, yeah, as much. Unknown Speaker 1:19:51 But, but also, I think, yeah, that's, that's a whole other topic. But, oh yeah, for sure, going back to your research, I'm key. Unknown Speaker 1:20:00 Curious. Like, what you seem pretty stoked about, yeah, everything you're doing, yeah. Like, what, what? Unknown Speaker 1:20:08 What's your biggest drag? Like, what? What are you just like, Oh my God. I, I'd never want to do that again. Or there's apparently being in the lab that you're just like, Oh my god. Statistics, man statistics, statistics, get me it's, it's, I find it very difficult. I'm not a math brain, but I can get I can, trust me, I can figure them out. But I figured out stats like seven times I forgot it immediately. So like, I like, it's like, stats like, I find, like, when I'm in it, I get it, but when I'm away from statistics, I get a hard I have, I've always had a hard time with stats. Like, I never, I never learned it. So, yeah, I'll leave it for you and chat. GPT, Unknown Speaker 1:20:58 yeah, so like, stats are difficult. And like, the thing that's like, frustrating about statistics is that they are what you use to communicate anything you need. Stats so, like, they are the backbone of science and this type of science, and most almost, well, they should be all sciences, but, you know, so statistics bog me down. Unknown Speaker 1:21:21 And also, like, there are definitely times when you get, like, you have existential crises about your research all the time. I swear it's like, I talk to my other friends who've been through grad school, and I'm like, Ah, so I had another existential crisis today, you know, like, just kind of like worrying about, like, you know when my Chaga fruiting bodies didn't do anything for months, and I'm like, Oh my God. Like, I have no data. Like, what am I doing? Like, I gotta finish this. Like, how am I even gonna write a paper about all of this? Like, and that happens a lot in science, like, all the time, and I think you kind of need that honestly. Like, there are definitely moments, like, right now, I feel like very good about my work, and I'm like, it's going well, and I have a lot of data to look at, but now I'm starting a new thing with epifluorescence microscopy, and that's going to be a whole endeavor for me. So that might be way more of a headache than I expected it would ever be, you know. So it's like, there's always these roadblocks along the way, and you have to be ready to just fail, like, Unknown Speaker 1:22:28 but like, it's good mindset. So it's like, yeah, it's, it's great, though, you learn, I don't know, it's just like, it's, I love science, man, it's so cool, like, being able to just study something for the sake of studying it like, and that's what I've kind of been, you know, like studying under my advisor. That's kind of what I've been allowed to do. Is because he kind of comes from this old, older school mindset where I'm kind of going off a tangent now, but or science kind of had this like, romanticism about it. You know, I feel like when you read old papers and old stuff, it like had some poetry in it, like it was, like it was cool and like people were interesting and were very passionate about these things, and almost like describing these things in this, like, interesting matter. Whereas now, when you read a lot of literature, it's like, sterile from a lab, you know, it's like, it's, it's so sterile and like, and I feel like, how I feel about this mushroom is kind of like this, like, just like, immense curiosity, and kind of like it has been like these fungi, like, have been my greatest teachers, you know, like, I've learned so much from these individuals. And just like, also learning about how to, like, live your life too, like how to grow. And it's, it's, it's very interesting, like, so like, I feel like, as time has went on, like, the fungi have definitely been my best teachers, for sure, but they also can, like, be, you know, pretty rude to, you know, like, they don't always do what you want, like they're their own thing. And, like, you can't. And I also learned, like, when I kind of wanted to finish earlier, but then I just got some funding so I don't have to, which is great. But anyway, like, I was like, Oh man, I gotta, like, finish. I gotta, like, get ready to present at a conference. Like, I have to, like, get all my data ready. And then I eventually, I was like, I can't rush the fungus. You know, it's you can't. You can't rush it. So I think the probably the biggest things I've learned have been, like, being patient with the fungi, because, like, they'll kind of do what they want. You can't. You can't rush them. You're a human being who's trying to learn from these things. I'm looking at them as each petri dish as an individual, even though they are cut from the same mycelium. But I like that cut from the same cloth, cut from the same mycelium, is pretty good. But anyway, there are very different from each other, like so. Anyway, yeah, I come into a lot of roadblocks. Unknown Speaker 1:25:00 Box and, Unknown Speaker 1:25:01 yeah, but finding lately I'm in this good area where I'm not feeling super bogged down with anything. So it's been nice. Okay, definitely there are times when you're really just, kind of, like, you, you kind of have to step away from the research at times, you know, like, you really just, I've like, taken like, breaks, like, sometimes you're really into it. You're reading papers, like, all the time. And then some days you're like, I like, I used to get angry. Like, why don't I want? Why am I not interested in this? Like, what am I doing? But then you just really have to, like, let yourself come back to it naturally. And then that's when the greatest, you know, just like, discoveries happen, is when you just kind of let it organically grow. Like, yeah, Celia, do Unknown Speaker 1:25:47 you have anything that no matter what you're having a terrible day or not, you're like, I will always do that and be just totally stoked on it, like, just looking at stuff under the microscope. Yeah, okay. Oh yeah. I feel like a favorite thing to look at under the microscope. Oh, man, that's such a hard question. I mean, Unknown Speaker 1:26:09 Chaga is beautiful under the microscope. I think that's probably my favorite one. I'm hoping to over the like, I have a nice split Gill tattoo on my arm here, Unknown Speaker 1:26:19 because I studied it actually for my undergrad thesis. I looked at it. I looked at very similar things. So I yeah, I hope to eventually, once I finish my master. So I got this after I did my undergrad. So after done my masters, I want to get like, bunch of Chaga microscopy all over me, and also, like canidio like molds. I'd love to get, like, some penicillin, or like, Aspergillus, or, like, just some, like, some of your classic, like, lab rats Unknown Speaker 1:26:46 as well. Unknown Speaker 1:26:47 Those would be cool to get. But, yeah, no, it's, Unknown Speaker 1:26:53 yeah, I feel like, yeah, probably looking at things on the microscope. Or, honestly, what else could like, you know, bring my day up. I mean, I'm also a musician. So I mean, I love playing Unknown Speaker 1:27:06 Bach and classic music. So I mean, something I love to do to when I'm like, I like, I like it, because you can just put down a piece of music and just kind of work on it, and you don't have to, like, think of creating anything, or you just kind of, like, work through this, like, beautiful piece of Bach, and it's so nice. And even if you're playing it like like you end up it ends up sounding beautiful because it's so well written. But anyway, I'm sure the chaga Petri plates appreciate it as well. Oh yeah, yeah. Oh my god, speaking of maybe some music that are playing out of my headphones. Sorry about that. Anyway. Yeah, like, Bach you want to I was actually like, I play the mandolin. It was mandolin music. I was worried. I was worried I was gonna have But anyway, yeah, I can hear it. So, Unknown Speaker 1:27:54 okay, so if you had unlimited time, money, equipment, team, yeah, etc. What would you do? Unknown Speaker 1:28:04 I mean, I think I would want to keep studying Chaga. If I, if I could, like, I think it's a big idea. And I think it's like, it's such a cool fungus that has Unknown Speaker 1:28:17 obviously, like, stuff I'm less concerned about people are always like, oh, economics. The thing you could be a rich guy Chaga is like, becoming a very popular fungus, like, in, like, economically. But that's not really what I'm super concerned about. I mean, if anything, I wouldn't mind, you know, I could supplement that, because obviously science is a anyway, but I'd say, I keep studying it. I would really love to, like, look at the population dynamics of, like, a stand of Chaga. Like, how do they relate to each other? Like, how genetically different Are they from each other? Like, where I feel like you could probably, like, it's interesting going into a forest, and you, like, see a bunch of Chaga, and then you find an old fruit body, and you're like, this was like, the mother fruit body that's like, born. Like all these trees that look about the same age, the chaga looks about the same age. So it's like, and they all came from this fruit body here. So it's like, yeah, I just want to keep studying it. And like, getting like bag cultivated fruit bodies out in the woods, and getting like insects to like colonize them, and then you trap the insects instead of the insects, like there's so much potential, I think with this species, Unknown Speaker 1:29:28 and, you know, might be a complex. It might be a species complex because it is circum circumboreal. So I have a feeling it's probably the chaga in Finland. Might be different from the chaga in Ontario, you know, or Wisconsin or Chaga growing on different trees, is it the same? Unknown Speaker 1:29:49 And there hasn't been, like, a big meta like Chaga study of like the whole world, which I think would be really cool to do at some point. And. Transcribed by https://otter.ai

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Backed by world renowned mycologists100% Mushroom Fruiting Bodies3rd Party Lab Tested Backed by world renowned mycologists100% Mushroom Fruiting Bodies3rd Party Lab Tested Backed by world renowned mycologists100% Mushroom Fruiting Bodies3rd Party Lab Tested Backed by world renowned mycologists100% Mushroom Fruiting Bodies3rd Party Lab Tested