Psilocybin Therapy for Women with Heather Lee
Alisa Nappa
Today we sit down with Heather Lee to talk about healing psilocybin therapy retreats for women. We chat about how one holds space for people dealing with trauma, what is it like to be a therapist, and what are the common things women from around the world come to these retreats to overcome and work through.
For more information:
https://youtube.com/shorts/NFOEmX1n_g0?si=ao1dixFb4DIU0rry
https://youtu.be/3HVcdWU5Tqc?si=x6-4iLaEkdf32g2Y
www.wellnessandwisdomjourneys.com
instagram @heatherleewellness
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TRANSCRIPT
Alex 0:12
Welcome, welcome. You are listening to the mushroom revival podcast. I'm your host, Alex Dora. And we are absolutely obsessed with the wonderful, mysterious, wacky world of mushrooms and fungi. We bring on guests and experts from all around the world to geek out with us and go down this mysterious rabbit hole to try to figure out what the heck is going on with these fungal beings. And today we have Heather a. Lee joining us from Colorado. Is that right? Correct. Yeah. And we're going to talk about midlife crises and women and how psilocybin can help and many more topics that we're we're going to go down. So Heather. Hi, how you doing today?
Speaker 1 0:53
I am great. Thank you so much for having me on. It's really a pleasure. I'm excited to share my passion for psilocybin and midlife women's health with you today. Likewise,
Alex 1:04
so for people who don't know you, what are you up to in this world?
Speaker 1 1:09
Yeah, so I have been a therapist and mental health therapists for over 30 years. I also have training from the Harvard Mind Body Medical Institute in mind, body medicine, which is really sort of my focus was stress physiology. And I used to run women's wellness programs at the University of Virginia Medical Center. So lots of years in the field, of really looking at integrative mental health. And my focus has always been really on non ordinary states of consciousness, and how those impact our sort of psycho spiritual energetic well being, and always my focus has been not on what tools do I have to help people find answers, but how do I help people find their own inner wisdom to access their own answers that we have deep within. So when the opportunity came up to get certified as one of the first psychedelic assisted psychotherapist, I was all in because that is really the path to accessing our inner wisdom.
Alex 2:11
And did you have a background with mushrooms before any experience or you just went through many modalities of healing and psychotherapy, and this was off, you're just at the right place at the right time? And you're like, Yeah, this is another great tool in the tool belt. Yeah,
Speaker 1 2:29
a little bit of all of that. So you know, back in the early 80s, when I attended college, I came from the East Coast out to Colorado, and had my first experiences with psilocybin and knew right away, that this was really a path for people to access a greater level of consciousness, and wisdom, and thus healing and and an enlightenment. So I knew right away that this was not a party drug. This was like really healing medicine. So from my own personal experiences, starting in the early 80s, it was a part of my path, I was not using it in a clinical capacity until the last few years. But when I after I completed my training in psychedelic assisted psychotherapy, I flew to Jamaica and spent four months living in Jamaica, leading psilocybin retreats back to back to back, just really doing a deep dive, working with the medicine with different, you know, people of different ages and stages and different issues going on. And, you know, just really becoming a collaborator with the mushroom. I work with the mushroom, as we all have those of us in the Nostrum space. Now, it's a collaboration and the mushrooms are really the wise ones, right?
Alex 3:44
Yeah, we have we have a lot of learning to do. We're very new species on this planet. And we act like little kids most of the time. So yeah, as much inspiration and learning that we could take from the mushroom beings that the better. And I'm just curious about your inspiration behind starting and hosting these women psilocybin retreats in Colorado and elsewhere. Did you have your own kind of midlife crisis and that you were kind of searching for this yourself? And you're like, wow, I I can't find this anywhere. I might as well start it myself. So other other women can have access or kind of what what was the beginning? Inspiration of that? Yeah,
Speaker 1 4:25
well, you know, the Universe works in powerful and mysterious ways. And the week that I got certified, I also got a breast cancer diagnosis, like within I would say 48 hours of getting my certification, I got a breast cancer diagnosis. And being a person who always looks for signs and symbols, I thought, Okay, this is not a coincidence. There is part of my path in working with psilocybin and psychedelic medicine is going to be related to cancer and people's cancer journeys. So the first thing I did with the brain I knew breast cancer diagnosis was a big six gram hero, Joe's journey. And you want to talk about dancing with the devil and facing your fears. I mean, I didn't know, you know, what was common for me, it was a brand new diagnosis. And I got the most incredible download of information about what was going on on the psycho spiritual energetic level that I could address. Basically, the mushrooms told me my cancer was fear turned cellular, and that it was fear based patterns of thinking around certain things to do with sort of like money and relationship and blah, blah, blah. So, you know, I proceeded to go and get a double mastectomy just because my mother had died of breast cancer. And I thought, I don't need to deal with any of this show, like, excuse my French, but like, let's just get a clean slate. It's all good. So, and I and I walked my doctors through all of this, they're like, you're telling us you did what I'm like, Yeah, I just did six grams of mushrooms, I got a lot of information. The mushrooms also told me to go into nature, find healing water, and prepare my body for what was coming. So my husband and I hopped in our van, we headed to Utah, we didn't know where we were going, I felt kind of like divinely guided, we ended up this place where there was this like waterfall coming down from on high into this pool of water, there was nobody around in the wilderness, I stripped down bare ass naked, I'm in that water. I'm like, this is the healing water. This is me preparing my body for the surgery that's coming. So this is how I really got this incredible way of working with the medicine. Using myself, as you know, seeing how this gave me so much ways to feel so many ways to feel like empowered what I could do, it helped me understand my dis ease on this whole other psycho spiritual realm. So, you know, again, I am now like, no cancer, that's all gone. That's done. I knew the doctors could deal with the physical part of it. But I felt like it gave me so much information about the other parts of navigating that disease, that the mental patterns, the physical, you know, patterns of how I was holding stress and anxiety. So, if that answers your question a little bit, I think I was a little bit on a tangent there. But so I now work with women early in cancer diagnosis, doing the medicine, I work with people who have other you know, like, OCD, health anxiety. So there's so many applications of this, and for those big life transitions, so for midlife women, just big life transitions, divorce, aging, aging parents, doing the journey to your inner wisdom, to get some guidance, on the path on the what's next, on what to leave behind what to look for in the future.
Alex 7:54
And what would you say are kind of the biggest transitions that these women are going through? How many women come with new cancer diagnosis ease? Or how many women are, you know, going through a divorce? Or what would you say are kind of the big, the biggest kind of transitions that these women are going through?
Speaker 1 8:15
Yeah, I think the biggest thing that we're finding on our retreats, and we really frame that our retreats aren't therapy retreats, they're more for personal growth and development and people that are at life transitions and crossroads. And it's a lot of relationship issues, empty nesting aging parents, and a lot about kind of accepting your own mortality and your own aging, and what that looks like to move into, you know, I say we're sort of moving into the age of the sage, right, so I like to say aging and saging with psychedelics. So, you know, our retreats are they're small, we keep them really small and soulful and safe. You know, we never it's usually about six to nine women. And there's really this the, you know, the the retreat itself, part of the medicine is women doing this together and holding space for each other and bearing witness to each other's journeys. And, you know, being bold and doing this adventure into the psychedelic space together and, and that's there's medicine in that alone, but it's really it's a lot of a lot of it is like is this it's like a we're I like to think that we're creating a new rite of passage for midlife women. This is like this new rite of passage for moving into the age of the sage. And it's accessing that deeper connection to your soul self reawakening that sense of awe and wonder, as you move into this next chapter, which can be one of the more powerful chapters in life.
Alex 9:48
And what have been some of the most, you know, like heartwarming or cathartic experiences that you've witnessed that these retreats have of personal growth or transitions in, in like a really profound way.
Speaker 1 10:02
There's so many that it's it's almost hard to say. But, you know, recently, we had a woman who lost her only son to a fentanyl situation. So she found him in the home, and has been just absolutely, you know, devastated with grief for two years, she's barely been able to get out of bed, she's just really had like, this grief that she couldn't shake. And she came on this retreat. And it was a challenge for her to get herself here and to trust the medicine. And, you know, it's so much work, when you work in this met with the medicine as I have to trust the medicine to, you know, there's a lot of just trusting that it is going to bring to everybody what they need, I always say what meets you is meant for you, and really holding space and trusting the medicine. So I had deep trust that this woman will not be re traumatized. But there would be healing brought to her. And her whole four hours on the medicine four to five. She was in Rapture of like joy and peace and happiness. And when she came out and I asked her what went on, she said, My son joined me immediately, and spent the whole four hours showing me what's beyond the veil, of what the universe really is, and how he's part of it now in this different way, in this different dimension. And we were laughing, and I said, I wish I had more pictures of you. And he started going like this, like throwing candid Polaroids at me and we were laughing. She said, You know, now when I think about my son, like I can smile, I can laugh, I can feel a connection. And before I would think about him, and I would just be lost in the grief and the sadness. So that was a really recent experience that I just thought was incredibly powerful.
Alex 11:51
And that leads me to an interesting question that I've been meditating on for, you know, a couple of years, which is, I feel like in our society, it's very hard for a lot of people to feel their emotions fully. Our body has some very interesting defense mechanisms from distracting ourselves or, or even just literally blocking out years of trauma, completely and totally forgetting it, among others, but on on the flip side, you know, I've, I've experienced this, I've heard a lot of people experience it, including this woman of just being stuck in the emotions or trauma, you know, and just being kind of in a cyclical loop of youth, every time you think about it, you just kind of get stuck in a rut of either depression or grief or whatever you're going through. So I'm just curious, your perspective on that balance of feeling the emotions or trauma fully, but then on the flip side, not getting stuck in it and moving through it. I'm just kind of curious on what your perspective on that as
Speaker 1 13:06
well. You know, I think we live in a culture where we do a lot of avoiding and dampening down the emotions, we don't want to feel right. Big Pharma is all about, well, here, take this and let's make it so you don't feel those those emotions, right? Well, we're designed to feel all these emotions, they all serve a purpose, right. So a lot of what we do in our culture is the avoiding the dance, we either like taking medication to avoid that feeling or we do a dance in our head, we dissociate we avoid on psychedelic medicine, we have the opportunity to approach and when we approach an experience, almost re experience on the medicine. This is how we rewire our brain because we're not just talking about the feeling or the thing, we're having an experience of the thing and being able to create new neural pathways by engaging with the material in this different space that we're in, in that neuro plastic state. So I think, you know, emotions are energy, and we can't block energy it needs to be moved through grief is an energy that needs to be moved through. And so it's there's a lot of this is retraining and the medicine helps us do this, like how do I go in and experience some of these things, but in this different state where I can move the energy through you now it sounds really trite, but it's you know, you got to feel to heal. And, and everybody I work with who's on you know, pharmaceuticals will say, Yeah, you know, the meds are keeping the depression, kind of tamper down. But I'm not feeling the joy either. Like, I'm kind of flat. So, I think there's a piece of it's almost this education and re acceptance of, it's okay to feel a whole range of emotions. And if you need to be really friggin sad for a while, like, feel it. Feel it grieve. You know, emotions are like weather they're not, they're not going to snot gonna stay forever I work with people with a lot of anxiety disorders as well. And you'll have, you know, like a panic, like in a panic attack, see, it's gonna pass, right, it's gonna move through. So learning how to kind of ride some of those waves with more acceptance of that moving that energy through and feeling some of those feelings is healing? Is I hope that sort of answers your question.
Alex 15:25
No, that I agree fully. And I think it's unbelievably important. Now, I think with the rise of what I'm seeing is this. In the spiritual community, in the healing community forum, quote, there's, there can be a lot of like toxic positivity or spiritual bypassing going on, and I've done it so much in my wife, and I still do it. of focusing too much on the good, quote, unquote, you know, there is no good and bad at the end of the day, like they're all just emotions or, or things coming up. But it can be easy for I mean, even just day to day, like, just the basic question of how're you doing today? Oh, I'm good. And it's like, good. You know, and, and if they say, I'm doing really bad, like, the other person gets, most of the time pretty uncomfortable of like, oh, you're not doing good. Oh, no, like, and I think, I think what you said is really important of, of just, it's okay to feel a wide range of human emotions. I mean, that's what literally makes us human. And I think I think you're right, it is a cultural shift of, kind of accepting all, all that we're feeling because you do, you do need to feel it. And um, you know, you've worked in, you know, I'm going to use the word traditional therapy, although, I think work with psilocybin has been done for 1000s of years. So maybe longer than talk therapy, but so that, in a sense, might be more traditional, but you've worked in that space for so many years. And I'm just curious, as a therapist point of view. What is the difference for you, like holding space? For someone? Who is working with psilocybin versus not? Does it make your work harder or easier? You know, like, what, what do you feel like, are the major differences?
Speaker 1 17:36
Yeah, I mean, I now say that I work in service with the mushroom. And I really mean that. So I almost work predominantly now with the medicine. And I think, you know, people are looking for healing at a much deeper level, they're looking for that missing piece of connecting with their soul and their spirit, and they're recognizing and feeling in an embodied way that that's part of the ill, not only individually, but societally, that disconnect. And so, you know, I think the medicine brings us back into connection with our souls with each other in a more meaningful way, with the greater of the universe with nature. You know, I always say to people, the side effects of psilocybin or you become more pro social, more pro environmental, you know, what other drugs is going to tell you? That's the side effects. So, you know, I really predominantly now work with people with the medicine and I think you No, I think there's absolutely a place for talk therapy when it's when it's done well, and right. And I think there's, there's lots of that. But I just, I think people want something more and deeper. And I think, and I'm sure I'm preaching to the choir here, when I say that, I think that these mushrooms are kind of rising up, and we're having this, you know, revival of met these medicines, because we need they're trying to save us from ourselves, trying to save us from ourselves, right, you know, bringing us back into connection with nature and the understanding that we are one of and part of and not separate from, and that heals us individually on a soul level and the healing that we do has a ripple effect out to the healing of the planet.
Alex 19:23
I I would love to hear your take on this. I just read a really great article and the writer was talking about how psilocybin is actually an amplifier. And it can actually you know, if you're coming in with with a huge ego and narcissism and all this stuff, one would like to think that psilocybin will humble you and you know, we're all one and, and we're, you know, but in so individuals that actually can act as an amplifier, and they can come out of the experience being like, on this divine, you know, God like being and and, and their ego actually gets bigger after the experience and which is wild phenomena. Obviously, it's a bit different because you are holding the space and you're able to kind of work through those things with the individuals. But I'm just curious if you've seen that. I read two different things like narcissism affects one in six people than I read another thing, one in 10 people, but it's still a lot. So I'm just curious on if you've experienced that phenomena with anyone? Yeah,
Speaker 1 20:44
I mean, I think it speaks to the importance of screening and that this is that this is not a path that is right for everybody. I mean, that that goes without, but does it needs to be said that not everybody probably should be doing psychedelic medicine, and there are some mental health and personality disorders for whom this could only amplify what is already potentially a problematic take on, you know, the world, right. So absolutely. You know, I'm really cautious when I screen everybody. And I, as I said, you know, we, our retreats are more about personal growth and development. But I'm really, really careful to make sure that people have a pretty solid grounding mentally and emotionally, before they venture into doing psychedelic medicine work. And to that point of, you know, it being an amplifier, because you're right, there's, there's this thought that this very lovely law thought of like, Oh, if we could just give this to those politicians Wink, wink, nudge nudge, right, that this would, right. But no, it could create like a worse beast. So I think you we have to be really careful. And understanding that this doesn't, it's not like you do the medicine, and all of a sudden, you're just like, a really good human. It can amp and again, done in the right container, right? So it's so important that the intentions, why you're doing the medicine, the support, on the flip side that integrating it, or how are you going to make, you know, changings changes and sustainable change, to enhance your own well being and those around you. So it really does need to be used in the container of proper intention. With, you know, for the greater good, let's say,
Alex 22:26
Yeah, and I like how you started with, you know, your intention is giving, get helping people unlock their tools, you know, and I see this a lot with, with people. You know, they get done with one retreat, and they're like, Oh, you got to sign up for the next one. You got to sign up for this next thing, and you're not healed enough, you got to do the next thing. You know, it's, it's a bit of an interesting business model, which I think is anti kind of the business model of pharmaceuticals, which is, we want you to be on this pharmaceutical for the rest of your life. And I think, yeah, the, for psilocybin, you know, it should be a couple of times and done, and then you integrate, and you do the work in your everyday life to just be a better person. And I have done it myself. I've seen lots of people just like Chase ceremony after ceremony. Yeah. And then they don't integrate. And I did that for many years of, until I realized I was like, Oh, I just all these downloads and lessons are here for me. You know, it's not really to do in the medicine space. And the second I end, a ceremony and magically a better person, it's like, no, it's every single day, every single moment of every single day. Like, that's when the work begins. Right. So, so thank you, thank you for, for starting this episode out with that intention, I think that's really good.
Speaker 1 23:56
And you know, and we tell all of you know, all the people that I work with, and that we work with on our retreats that, you know, because we live in this western model of you take a pill and it does the thing for you. And we really lay out the format that that is not at all what's going on with psilocybin you are working in partnership with this advanced being probably right, like with the fungi, you it's a partnership, and you're working with, you're using that to help amplify your good intent, your intentions around your healing, but you don't come and do the medicine, and then you're fixed. It's now you are in partnership, working with the medicine. So that's really the, you know, really important part of the framework that we set up. And we also tell people that you know, maybe you This is it, this one journey might give you all the information you need. I tell people you know, I feel then I do about one journey a year feels like a good reset. For me. My partner does about three a year. We tell people there's no right or wrong, and it's whatever feels right for you. And it's not something you put on a calendar you Do it when it feels right, and things are aligned. So, you know, I have heard of people in other parts of the country and around that are doing things where they're doing ceremonies and having people join clubs, and do a ceremony every single weekend. To me, that feels like you're using a capitalist model of trying to make money versus working in service of the mushroom.
Alex 25:23
IE, I asked every therapist, I know, and I have quite a few therapist friends. And you know, every, every time I bring on a therapist onto the show, I asked this question because I'm genuinely so curious about holding space for other people can feel like, if you don't have the proper tools, it feels like such a catalyst for burnout. Because you're you kind of you have to be open enough to really be empathetic with people and, and really be open to the struggles and the in the deep traumas that they're feeling. But if you're too open, you know, you take on other people's shit, you know, and you can that can really weigh on you. And I've had it before where I've been super open holding space for someone just in a conversation. And at the end of the conversation, I'm just exhausted, you know, and so I'm just curious, like, what, what tools and practices that you use to hold space, so you can keep your cup full, and you don't burn out?
Speaker 1 26:29
Yeah, and that is way more of an art than a science. And it is really, really important. And for anybody, you know, coming and going into the field of therapy, and again, that's something that I've learned many moons ago, that it's so important to have those practices, and they are practices, you know, it's it's almost like psychic shielding. So, you know, way more of an art kind of science, and it's just so important to have practices, and they really do need to be almost practices know, how do you psychically shield yourself from a, you know, be present open, non judgmental, and really, in this compassionate, open hearted space with somebody and their material, but recognizing that it is theirs, and that you really are just kind of holding space to bear witness and provide that really compassionate presence, but that it's not, you know, how not take that on sometimes involves, like, imagining that person bathed in white light, and trusting that the light is their healing their, you know, their material, and then knowing that, you know, feeling it's almost like a shielding of, of my own energy, but being able to be present without in a state of like absorbing somebody else's. So it's a lot of it is really almost like using these sort of semantic and imagery, long sort of ways of being with that you are shielding yourself, you are being present, you are holding space for somebody with a full open empathetic heart, but in a way that you have designed for yourself that you're not absorbing what they have. And at the end of the day, you know, a good old fashion, you know, shower, literally I I envision sort of washing that other people's energy off coming back to center, a lot of work with, you know, breath work and mindfulness, just to maintain my own center is so important. So having practices that even in the midst of a session where I can return to the breath and make sure that I'm staying present from a really centered space during an interaction.
Alex 28:39
I have kind of a two part question. And the first one being Do you have any just simple tips or tricks for people who want to hold better space for for people in their life? You know, and there's just, you know, everyday conversations if someone's going through it. And the second part of that is, you know, I've experienced this, I have some loved ones in my life, which I would love to go deeper with them. But for some reason, you know, there's some blockages or whatever, and they're just not willing to go there. Or it feels like I have to put a lot of effort to really go deep. And, and you probably experienced this, you know, being being a therapist of having clients that just, you know, they only give you surface level or they only give you little bits and you're like on the other side like oh my god, like you can see it clearer than they can and you're like, oh my god, I like want to go deeper, but they're not ready. So it kind of a two part question of like how any tips and tricks for people that want to hold better, deeper space for people in their life.
Speaker 1 29:53
Yeah, well, I think those two questions go together very well because I think so much of it is about money. Getting to meet people where they're at. Right? So, you know, we often in conversations or even, you know, potentially, as therapists think that we know where things should go or what conversations should happen. And, you know, when when you're really doing a good job, you're really meeting somebody where they're at, you know, what, are they ready? What is what's their space. So part of that empathy and compassion is, is being really present to where the space that person is in. And there's so much power in, you know, really that active listening piece, we're not a lot of good listeners in this world, were a lot of good talkers. So, you know, if you really just ask open ended questions, and listen, like really tune in when I say you want to be attuned, it means tuning in. So tuning into that other person's, what are they saying, with their words, with their body language, with their, the tone, you know, tuning into where they're at, what their experiences of what they're sharing with you, and just really trying to be, understand from their point of view to be present with what they're sharing and experiencing, outside of what your agenda for the conversation is, because we tend to go into conversations and interactions with what we how we want to steer things, and things should evolve out of this give and take an interplay of the listening, and then following what's shared, versus really directing. So I think when they're conversations that you think might be appropriate to have or places that you might want to go, it's more, you get more mileage by asking a open ended question than putting a statement out, you know, I'm trying to think of an example. You know, I have a young adult daughter who's been talking about having better boundaries recently. And, you know, sort of saying, you know, tell me a little bit more about how I can kind of show up, that, that feels right, with that boundary for you. You know, I mean, that's so much different than saying, you know, you're asking me to have boundaries, and I don't like, what does that mean? You know, just tell me more about how that would feel for you. Like, how would that look for you? So it's, it's that act of listening, listening, they're really coming from a place of compassion, and wanting to be attuned to that person's way of being what you're having a conversation about?
Alex 32:36
And a similar question, do you have any tips and tricks for people to hold space for their own emotions and trauma coming up?
Speaker 1 32:49
Yeah, people don't love to sit with their own stuff, do that. Now, that's where that good old avoidance comes in. You know, I often encourage people, I am such a big believer, I, you know, I'm also trained in Eco therapy. And I think nature is one of our powerful ally, in our healing physically and emotionally. So I really almost prescribe to all my clients, to spend quiet time in nature, and to have that be the place where they visit some of the things that are presenting challenges for them. So to go out in nature, and while you're walking, while you're in a mindful, almost moving meditation, then bring that bring whatever it is that that's something that you're wanting to hold space with. And bring it up and let it just come to you gently. Now that's even how I describe it, let it come to you gently don't force it in as a big, you know, oh, my god, how am I going to solve this problem, just bring it up as something that you just want to kind of just sit with and give yourself even a timeframe that I'm going to walk for 15 minutes on this trail, or in this park or in the woods. And for 15 minutes, I'm just going to invite that issue to be my companion on this walk just to be with me. And I'm going to ask, you know, is there any other way I might look at this issue? Is there anything I might not be understanding about this issue? So really, that that has been powerful for people to just spend time with an issue holding space for it, but without forcing it to give you an answer to have a resolution to just be with it lightly, and see what it might bring to you when you're in, out in nature in a moving meditation. And, and often people have profound insights in those states.
Alex 34:38
I love that. And I have a little experience with with somatic bass therapy. And I'm a huge fan. And I've I felt like traditional talk therapy for me. only goes so far. Yeah, and I love you know, therapists like yourself that that we even kind of Mind Body Spirit. Because we are a multifaceted being. And we need a multifaceted approach when it when it comes to healing. And I just, you know, even the simple visual visualization of the white light or, you know, love visualizations for myself, and they've been extremely effective for me. So I'm just curious how you balance you know, talk therapy versus more of a somatic based approach?
Speaker 1 35:33
Yeah. Well, I think I think I weave in things with a somatic even into sort of my most mainstream talk therapy, because now I always start sessions with people doing, you know, a guided meditation that involves breathing and noticing your body and inviting relaxation, inviting yourself to feel how it feels, you know, doing a body scan to be present, you know, I don't think we can really part and parcel out, body from mind from spirit we are, we are all of that in any given moment, at the same time. So, you know, I really kind of always weave in, you know, even when somebody expresses an emotion, I'll say, you know, close your eyes for a minute and tell me where you feel that, you know, where is that emotion in your body? I think helping people sort of rediscover and reconnect to that those things are intrinsically interconnected, is really helpful to introduce people to that level of self awareness about how thoughts impact you physiologically, right? Like, my absolute favorite word in the whole world is psycho neuro immunology, the study of how emotional states impact our immune system. So, you know, and I love sharing that with people, because it's people don't we live in a culture where we've cut our heads off from our bodies, like, we don't really realize that it's all one. So yeah, thank you for asking that question. Because I think they need to be woven together, I think talk therapy needs to incorporate in whatever level therapists are comfortable with it. But I think, I think, you know, recognizing that thoughts and emotions affect us, physiologically, you can't, you can't avoid that as part of the work that you're doing.
Alex 37:24
Right, right. And to go, in both ways, deep into the uncomfortable emotions, but also on the flip side, you know, you're talking about this before, with, with a lot of pharmaceutical drugs, it's like, yeah, I mean, it's helping suppress the negative emotions. But I also can't feel as deeply the good emotions. And there's something extremely profound about having a really calm nervous system and vagus nerve, and just, you know, it, it allows the space for the full spectrum of emotions to come through. And I think that, in my perspective, it can only happen if you have a full somatic approach, and weave in the body, not just not just the brain, not just the mind. And I love that you breathe, you bring in breathing techniques as well. And yeah, I, I've had a couple of friends go to Naropa University, and they, they teach a lot of those practices as well. And I just love it, I think it's the future of therapy. And really, it's kind of just going back to the roots of what we've been doing, you know, for for 1000s. of years. But yeah, so thank you for bringing that into your practice. I really appreciate it.
Speaker 1 38:48
You know, I work with a lot of people with anxiety disorders, who doesn't right, in this modern world have anxiety. So, and I have people you know, I also think, you know, not only sort of the somatic but but we were so missing on out on ritual, and ceremony and rituals, having rituals for things as well. So I have many of my clients with anxiety issues and disorders create a little relaxation, like I tell them to create, like a little medicine bag that has their, their relaxation kit in it. So to have a little aromatherapy scent, and a crystal or a stone, and that you use these that, you know, to create a little ritual of relaxation for yourself. Because as we know, you know, people that have stress and anxiety, it's like you've got a superhighway to stress and anxiety, like you can hop on the bus and be like right there right away. But it's like this teeny little path through the bushes to get to the place of calm and relaxation. And we need to retrain our brains, how to get as quickly to the place of relaxation and calm as we can get to the place of stress and anxiety. So I encourage people to, you know, on a regular basis, if not three times times a day, do a little mini relaxation ritual that trains your brain and lays down those neural pathways so that you've now are building this more, you know, well trodden path to get to the place of relaxation and calm. So one of the ways that might look, I tell people, you know, every time we live in a car culture, and every time you get in your car, and you close the car door,
Alex 40:24
it's quiet.
Speaker 1 40:26
Before you turn the key, and blast the radio and get on a crazy Road, you've got a moment that you have enclosed yourself into a quiet little capsule where nobody's going to bother you. So to use that moment, when you close the car door, to take just five minutes, do five deep cleansing breaths, get out your little aromatherapy that's in your medicine bag, get out your little crystal, so that you have the tactile sensation of when I rub this little stone, when I smell this scent, which is training your olfactory brain part of your brain to connect to this process as well. I do this breathing, I do this little mantra, and I have a five minute ritual. That is the ritual of calm. And if you do that, you know three times a day, you're starting to build this new pathway of how to get to a place of calm and inner peace.
Alex 41:20
I love that. Yeah, it's
Unknown Speaker 41:21
it's powerful.
Alex 41:23
I can't remember what I was reading. But the author was talking about how, as the mostly in Western culture, but I feel like this is pretty applicable for most humans is that we're, we're pretty good at thinking that we're relaxing, but we're really disassociating. And it's very rare for us to reach true relaxation, you know, we're really good at sitting sitting on the couch and watching Netflix and maybe having a beer. But is that true relaxation, we're kind of just turning off the mind. And I can't remember the name of this book, I read it maybe a year or two ago, but the author was talking about how we don't reach true relaxation, very often. And we, when we think that we're relaxing, we're really just doing a bunch of stuff. Like sitting on the couch and watching Netflix and having a beer, you know, isn't really true relaxation, we're just kind of disassociating right. And it's very easy in our culture with so much easy access to entertainment and all these different things to disassociate rather than truly relax and have have true peace and quiet and, and really deeply reset our nervous system. And it's, you know, it's it's, it's hard in our capitalist, go go go society, where I've noticed, even in my own self, where I've had to retrain shame around relaxation. And I noticed this inner voice saying, you know, there was a lot of shame that came up of like, oh, no, you should be working, you should, you know, and, and all you're, you're, you're being lazy, you're not you're not doing anything. And I had to really retrain that, especially over the last few years of like, no, no, this is this is important. This is really good. And, and I've heard a lot of people have that same shame narrative of like, they don't allow themselves to truly relax and they they feel like they need to be doing at least something, you know, so
Speaker 1 43:50
Well, I think you're right, I think you're right, that it's a it's a cultural thing, and there is a retraining involved and that sitting on the couch is not the same as eliciting the relaxation response and giving a true physiological relaxation response. So that that is a lot of work I do with people around what is actually how do you actually elicit a relaxation response? And yeah, I mean, our culture is just crazy about that you need to be go go go and do do do and, and I, you know, I'm always telling people that sometimes doing less is doing more, right and, and doing nothing is sometimes doing something really important. So that again, that's why I really weave in, you know, the nature immersion, the ecotherapy because nature is a great teacher and a great place to reconnect to that sense of just being present. Not having to do anything but just be so one of the exercises I do with people's I have them go out in nature and find a spot where you're not going to be interrupted by you know, other people out on the trail, and just stop and close your eyes. Close your eyes and notice what you hear really close. Maybe it's your own breath. Maybe it's the leaves crunching on beneath your feet. And then slowly expand your awareness out to what you hear just a little bit further away, maybe it's the wind and the leaves, and then expand it even a little further to where you may be here, an aeroplane out in the distance, and then slowly bring it back in. And then notice, you know, notice what you smell, notice what you feel on your skin, and bringing people into the sensory awareness of the now you don't have to do anything, just be present and aware. That is so mind blowing to people. You know, when I assign them this, they're like, Wow, that was like one of the most powerful things I've done. And it's like, right, because we're so busy being overstimulated by a lot of fluff, that we lose track of being present for what is really like, for ourselves and for the natural world, and you know, just how to just be, we have to retrain people how to just be and that it's okay to just be and not be doing.
Alex 46:09
Hmm. I, I say this a lot on the podcast, because it, it, it's so important. And it's, I'm speaking to myself as well. But when I noticed, I noticed that there's this juxtaposition inside of me, between, you know, I have a background in Zen Buddhism, but I also am a biologist. So when I go out mushroom hunting, there's this really funny thing that happens, where my mycologist brain is, like, oh, that's bla, bla, bla, bla, and name. And my mind just, you know, goes on a cycle of like, Oh, I know that mushroom. And I know the recipes that I can cook it up with, or baba, baba blah, and the Zen Buddhist or, you know, the other side of me, which I want to foster more is, is what you're exactly what you're saying of, can I just be present with that mushroom or that plant, just as it is, and kind of turn off my brain and just experience it and just be with it. And notice, you know, all the smells and all the shapes and all the colors without going down this monkey mind rabbit hole of trying to name a Latin name on it, or trying to put it in a box or trying to fit this narrative that, you know, the mind just keeps going. It's like, can I just sit with it and be with it and and absorb it? Just how it is?
Speaker 1 47:45
Yeah. Well, I love that, you know, we all have these parts, right? I do a lot of parts work and I love it and we have these different parts. And you know, it might be fun for you to kind of name that part right that out the part of you. That's like the little Mr. mycologists giving them a little name and then like when that when you feel that kicking in you could like say okay, yes, we now we know you know at all Mr. Little Mr. Alex smarty pants, but couldn't you just gonna take a little break? And we're gonna let this other Alex just be with a mushroom for a minute. But thank you, thank you for your what, you know, that's been really good. You know, I mean, really, I get playful with people about, you know, their parts and how to work with their parts. And, you know, with people again, I have a lot of people with pretty severe anxiety disorders, and I'll have them, you know, really personify that part that gets so anxious and give it a name. And sometimes they'll say, you know, you need to tell that part. They're not invited out on the hike, because they get so nervous about stuff. So literally sit down and tell them you're gonna stay in the car, I'm going to come back, but you're not invited on the hike, you know?
Alex 48:53
Uh, yeah, I've heard something similar, which has helped me a lot of doing the same with emotions or traumas. And it's so easy to identify with things like, I am sad right now. And the flip is like, Oh, this is sadness. entering my space. Right. And it it kind of that has been a profound kind of somatic visualization practice for me of just kind of viewing everything as guests entering my house. You know, I can like sit down have tea with them and you know, but I don't I wouldn't say embody but just identify so strongly with these things like I am sadness, or I am sad. And it's like, oh, it's just it's entering my space and you can kind of make a little character as well like it just like you're saying, give it a name. That's Fred. But I love that that's, that's been super, super amazing for me and highly recommend. Everyone try it and Thanks for the reminder, so I can continue practicing it more and more, because it's such a profound practice. And I love it. So thank you. Yeah,
Speaker 1 50:07
on our last retreat, we had a woman who had really treatment resistant depression that she's had since her childhood from lots and lots of trauma. And, you know, we just, we were just kind of talking about how can you, you know, Hello darkness, my old friend, like, how can she be friends that grief and that depression, and but we have changed the relationship to it, right. And her mushroom journey brought up a lot for her with that, that just an opportunity to you're never probably you're never going to get rid of it all. It's new, you're never going to be completely free of it. It is your companion in this lifetime journey. But how can you have a different relationship to the darkness, to the grief, you know, and the lyrics of that song, hello, darkness, my old friend kind of became a little mantra for her. We just talked about how you can spend time with that sadness. But there are also times that you can you can say I'm going to spend some time, you know, enjoy today with my grandchildren. And I know that you're my companion for life, but you're not my companion today.
Alex 51:09
I have a quick but funny story about this, specifically that that I just I love one of my old teachers who passed away a few years ago, he dealt with OCD his whole life. And he went down an Ayahuasca route. And one night, you know, it just he has been struggling with OCD for so many years. And one night, he was like, All right, tonight, I'm going to figure it out. He's like, no matter what I'm not, the night is not over until I really just sit down with OCD. And we're just going to have a heart to heart and we're gonna figure it out. And so he did this practice of kind of making this character of, of OCD. And he's like, I just had this visualization that We're roommates in house, and we're always bickering and we're always, you know, causing distress between each other. But he's like, I just viewed my OCD as my roommate, you know, and he's like, look, sat, sat him down on the kitchen table, I was like, Look OCD. What are we going to do? You know, you're, you just want to control everything in my life, but you're causing me a lot of stress and stressing my relationships and things like that, like, Can we can we make a deal? And he's like, What if I create a whole separate universe, and you can be the king CEO, like control master over there in that universe, and you and I'll give you everything you ever want and need, like you need and want and your deepest desire is control. So you can run that universe, but I won't be part of that universe. But in in exchange for allowing you you know, full freedom, whenever I lose my keys or you know, I misplace something I can call on you to help me out. Any any said after that night, all the quote unquote, negative side effects of OCD went away. And whenever he lost his keys, he would, you know, call on, you know, his OCD and be like, Alright, I need your help, come, bring your control magic and helped me find my keys. And every single time, it would help him find his keys and, or whatever he misplaced. And I just thought that was such a funny story in such a good way, creative way that we can kind of use these visualization practices to help many, many, many sorts of things, but
Speaker 1 53:46
salutely I love that. Yeah, powerful. What,
Alex 53:50
um, what would you say is the hardest part of this work for you?
Speaker 1 53:55
You know, I think it's managing people's expectations. It's an important, important part of my job, and in sort of preparing people for medicine work, because there's so much hype in the media right now. And, you know, people tend to think, Oh, I'm just going to, like, you know, eat the mushrooms, and they're going to fix me. So, you know, a lot of the work is just really helping people doing the education about what the psilocybin experience is going to be, what kinds of changes and choices and challenges that might bring up, but to help, you know, manage the expectations that the medicine doesn't just, you don't eat the mushrooms and they do the thing and fix you that it's a collaboration and that you're going to work with the mushrooms you're going to work with the material that comes up that that's the beginning of the path of healing, as at the mushrooms kind of show the way and where what to work with and what needs to come to the surface. So I would say it's really managing people's expectations.
Alex 54:53
And on the flip side, what what gets you up in the morning, what gets you excited to continue knew this work what's what's the most rewarding aspect that you cherish the most?
Speaker 1 55:04
That's easily that I feel like I am part of that this working with this medicine is part of a great awakening. And that everybody, you know, for each person that journeys, there's a little bit more of a spark of an awakening of that inner wisdom, and that interconnectedness, and really trusting and believing that there's a ripple effect that the more people that have this awakening and increase their awareness, and become more conscious, and more connected to each other and to the planet, that there's a ripple effect of good for the higher good.
Alex 55:44
And sort of a two part question, but where do you see psilocybin assisted therapy evolving into in five to 10 years? And kind of Part B to that is, where would you like to see it in five to 10 years?
Speaker 1 56:02
Yeah, well, I think the answer of where I? Well, I don't know where I see it, but where I hope to see it, you know, I really think that it will take its place alongside other healing and self care modalities such as, you know, meditation, and yoga, and mindfulness. You know, we've adapted, you know, healing modalities from other cultures around the world into our, you know, ethos, you know, you look at, you know, sauna was in, you know, in European cultures and Scandinavian cultures that was a healing modality. Tasman was calls and Mexico was a healing practice that now is more common. So I really like to think that it that doing a journey on psilocybin will become something that people do as a way to enhance their wellness and their inner wisdom and understand their path. And, and that it'll take its place alongside other ancient healing modalities that have found their way into our culture. That's what I like to think will happen. And
Alex 57:08
for people that have resonated with you and want to continue following what you're doing, and maybe join you on a retreat, where can people find you?
Speaker 1 57:18
Yeah, I would love people to find us and join us on retreat. So we have two different websites is wellness and wisdom journeys, one word wellness and wisdom journeys, and medicine woman retreats.com. So those are the two websites. And again, my name is Heather. A Li, and yeah, find me. Find me on the internet. Find me on the web, find me at our website, we yeah, really, you know, my passion is helping women discover the soul and safe experience of psilocybin for their own personal growth and wellness. Yeah.
Alex 57:57
Well, thank you so much, Heather. This has been a really insightful conversation and we went down so many rabbit holes, I think, so many great reminders and just tools to add to the toolbox and practices and just, you know, making making this weird human experience just a little more easier to deal with, because it's, it's a weird one and, and, you know, mushrooms are here to help us if we want to make that relationship. And so thank you for doing the work. I really appreciate you helping people unlock their potential and their tools to just live a better more easeful life. So thank you,
Speaker 1 58:44
I like to think we're helping them remember the magic. Hmm,
Alex 58:47
I love that. And thank you everyone for for tuning in and tuning in to another episode of the mushroom revival podcast. We could not do it without you, wherever you're tuning in from from around the world. If you like the show, and you want to support we don't have a Patreon or any way that you can contribute directly to the show. But we do have a brand mushroom revival that has a whole line of organic functional mushroom supplements from capsules, to powders to gummies and tinctures. And we have a special coupon code just for listeners of the podcasts and that code is pod treat for a surprise discount code. We also have a giveaway going on if you don't want to spend any money and that link is in the bio. You we pick a winner winner once a month. And so you can win some some free goodies. We also have a bunch of other free things on the website. Like we have a whole line of free ebooks that you can download and a ton of blog posts that we continue to write every week and from recipes to ecology and mushroom. to micro dosing, psilocybin history and everything you can think of including all of our podcasts and show notes on there as well that you can dive deeper. But if you want to further support I think leaving review goes a really long way. And also just telling your friends and family and strangers that you meet on the street, about mushrooms and something that maybe you learned in this episode or another episode. Just continue to spread the wisdom of mushrooms far and wide and get people just really excited about not only mushrooms but just nature in general. And like Heather said, spend more time in nature maybe take a nice cleansing bath under a waterfall that sounds really nice and you know, as always, much love and may the spores be with you
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
