Music For Mushrooms with East Forest
Alisa Nappa
Join us today as we sit down with the wise and talented East Forest to talk about his new film - Music For Mushrooms. We chat about what it takes to shoot a movie, build a mushroom retreat center, what creative rituals go into playing music, how important music is for ceremony, and how to stay a loving force while dealing with the complex heavy world we're apart of. Tune in and Shroom in.
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TRANSCRIPT
Unknown Speaker 0:00
Alex,
Unknown Speaker 0:10
welcome, welcome. You are listening to the mushroom revival podcast. I'm your host, Alex Dorr, and we are absolutely obsessed with the wild and wacky, mysterious world of mushrooms and fungi. We bring on guests and experts from all around the world to geek out with us and go down this mysterious rabbit hole to try to figure out what the heck is going on with these fungal friends of ours. And today, we have East forest joining us to talk about his new film on music and mushrooms and what's going on in your life. So, East forest, how you doing? Man, I'm good, yeah, as we were saying beforehand, just busy. But busy is good. I'm good. Thanks.
Unknown Speaker 0:54
And for people who don't know you, maybe haven't heard of this film, haven't listened to your music, who is East forest.
Unknown Speaker 1:04
Jesus, I don't know. I'm just a guy who's been making music for 15 years, and I'm interested in, like, what tools we can use to kind of help us build inner fortitude and explore the inner space,
Unknown Speaker 1:21
so that a lot of that's music, but I have a podcast, I do retreats, and
Unknown Speaker 1:26
I have a film right now called Music for mushrooms that's also just another like doorway to explore that world
Unknown Speaker 1:35
and what kind of prompted you to get into this space of
Unknown Speaker 1:40
both mushrooms and music and holding space for people. And I guess the mushrooms did, I mean, it was back in 2008 I was really moved by some experience I had with with mushrooms and music and that that really propelled me to share it with friends. And then I had one friend in particular, named Louis, who just started setting up ceremonies, um, which turned into a plant medicine church, and I just started guiding ceremonies that he kept setting up, and we started working with a lot of people, so we just sort of developed a protocol, and that's become a little more like It wasn't, it wasn't very cool back then, and now there's more interest. I think it's more like a symptom of the times. You know, there's mushrooms and people are things are falling apart, basically. So we're looking for answers and techniques, and because we've been working in this space for so long, and sort of in a modern context of music, from that angle,
Unknown Speaker 2:43
we have something to share add to the conversation.
Unknown Speaker 2:47
And was, is that the farm that's talked about in the film, the original center, that's, that's where I started? Yep, yeah. And what is, what is the vision with the farm? Is that still running? Are you still a part of it? Yeah, it's still going, it's, it's a it's a farm, but it's also a plant medicine church, where they're doing a lot of really beautiful work. So there's a variety of people who work there in different modalities. So there's so many of these that have cropped up over the years. And I think it's
Unknown Speaker 3:18
an interesting methodology for like, how do we scale up? And there's sort of like, expensive foreign retreats. And then there's, like, the FDA legal model, and then there's this sort of religious model. And some people might be a little oh gosh, religion. It's like, well, it's more thinking about you get certain religious protections, and that's sort of already baked in to our Constitution, therefore it can be a faster path. It's still a gray area in many regards, but it gives you some form of formality to to work in these spaces. Music is my religion
Unknown Speaker 3:56
and both. I don't know if anyone's founded the music church yet, but they could try, yeah. I mean, both mushrooms and music take you to mystical experiences in places that are so profound throughout the beginning of time. You know, in every single culture of and ceremony, like music, like you said in in the film, it's more than half of of a mystical experience, or psychedelic experience, is the music, right? I'd say, I think I said all of them that I know, like, truly all I've yet to experience one from an indigenous perspective that doesn't involve music as the primary guide.
Unknown Speaker 4:35
So I, I feel like it's pretty common, this, this like wounded soul, this wounded healer phenomena where feel like people who have gone through a lot of shit in their life and felt a lot of pain, whether that's physical from an illness or mental, emotional,
Unknown Speaker 4:56
once they get through it and they want to help other people.
Unknown Speaker 5:00
And I feel like your parents kind of talked about it in the film that anxiety was kind of the biggest battle for you growing up. I'm just curious how that has affected you. And,
Unknown Speaker 5:12
yeah, what has helped the most? There's definitely more depression grown up, and some anxiety, sure. And now I feel like it's more anxiety, but
Unknown Speaker 5:23
I think anytime
Unknown Speaker 5:25
you find
Unknown Speaker 5:27
processes that are kind of working for you, like Ram Dass once said that there's sort of like what, especially when you have certain psychedelic experiences, you can recognize that there's really only one game in town, and that's sort of returning home to God in a sense, and also that we're all one. It's this interconnected feeling that you really sense on a very fundamental level. And therefore, when you're back here in this three dimensional reality, day to day, life,
Unknown Speaker 5:57
service should become a bit of a natural inclination, because there's not what else is there to do,
Unknown Speaker 6:04
but to help. If we're all one, and we are sort of returning back to the source, in a sense, then why not help that process along? And it's not so much like a burden, but it's what you want to do, because it gives you all the other things seem like superfluous or they're ancillary to like, with the fundamental task of of like what's bringing me closer to the moment, closer to the source. So in that way,
Unknown Speaker 6:36
you also, I think we all get great pleasure from helping other people engender the feelings that we want to feel ourselves. And I learned that a long time ago. So in that regard, it's somewhat self serving, because it's, you know, I want to feel peacefulness, or I want to feel connected, or I want to feel happy or joyful, and so you kind of help other people feel that too. And it can, it can be sort of a collective feeling, if you were,
Unknown Speaker 7:07
and I know you talked about this a lot during this film,
Unknown Speaker 7:12
and I love Ram Dass perspective on this. And
Unknown Speaker 7:17
you know, a lot of the main point in the film was, people are going through it and are really struggling, especially now in the last few years post COVID, but
Unknown Speaker 7:28
with social media showing us all this genocide and war and destruction and in this world, like, how do we, how do we cope with it? And I know Ram Dass perspective is, you know, love, serve, remember, come back home and find bliss in those small moments.
Unknown Speaker 7:48
Like Duncan Trussell said in the film, he's like, Yeah, but just be around your dinner table with your family and like, That's it, you know. And like, love, love people around you. But I'm curious, you
Unknown Speaker 8:01
know, you know, you said you dealt with a lot of anxiety, and do you feel this sort of hopelessness or like this, this feeling like you're not doing enough? And those small moments,
Unknown Speaker 8:14
as much as they feel like source or truth or like love and amazingness to to hold that in the moment, yet also feel so much immense suffering in this world. Like, how do you how do you grapple with that?
Unknown Speaker 8:32
Well, I hear a few questions in there, but I heard you ask, like, do I feel if I'm doing enough? I Yes, I do feel like I'm doing enough, because I kind of feel like I could do nothing, and maybe that'd be an that'd be enough. I know that sounds kind of maybe like spiritual bypassing, but what I'm trying to say is that,
Unknown Speaker 8:49
if anything, I worry more that I'm causing more of a problem. Yeah, and that's something I worry about a lot.
Unknown Speaker 8:58
What is right action in in a sea of information sickness. And what is is using the mechanisms that are part, fundamentally part of the problem, like social media, and yet, trying to subvert a system that you're it's co opting you at the same time, and I think particularly on social media,
Unknown Speaker 9:23
it's there's a lot of bad information, a lot of wrong information, and there's just, like, mostly manipulation of our dopamine and our consciousness, and we get into these reality tunnels that are not accurate, and It gets actually very difficult for us to know even what is accurate anymore or what's true.
Unknown Speaker 9:47
And we're being we're just hacked. We're hacked. And so I'm very interested. I used to be. I'm still interested in creating pause and creating cracks in that. But I think things have become more dire in a way that I want.
Unknown Speaker 10:00
To take more direct action, but it can be very confusing in what would actually be effective, as opposed to just adding to more division,
Unknown Speaker 10:08
and that's tricky. And look, man, I don't have all the answers in that regard, but one thing I like and trust about art and music, things that are based in metaphor, is that it's not a specific answer. It's engendering a kind of feeling and inspiration. And I have to hope and trust on one level, that these larger forces, essentially these larger the larger intelligence of what we are, if it can have the room to speak through I do believe that we naturally want to be cooperative and loving, and there's like a loving force in the universe that wants to it well, it just is. It's just whether or not we're harmonizing with it. It exists like we can fall into that. And therefore it's one thing to remind each other of that. But there is a fine line between just Hawking bullshit that is just like putting people more to sleep and giving them excuses not to act in a time of dire situations. I mentioned in the film too, this idea that things are messed up and all right at the same time, like, and I get that feeling, and I do have that feeling. And the confusing part is like, what do you do with that? You know? And so you're just not just running on a hamster wheel, like I can hold on one hand that things are actually right and perfect, and the other hand I can hold that it's terrible and completely messed up. It's never been so messed up, and it's getting worse, and we need to do things or there'll be even more suffering and suffering is real.
Unknown Speaker 12:02
You.
Unknown Speaker 12:20
When you witness a dark thought, a dark
Unknown Speaker 12:26
thought that isn't going to get you anywhere,
Unknown Speaker 12:34
you witness it
Unknown Speaker 12:38
and love it. You
Unknown Speaker 12:44
You love your daughter. You
Unknown Speaker 13:07
the oneness
Unknown Speaker 13:09
of the universe
Unknown Speaker 13:11
is love.
Unknown Speaker 13:24
We're all so sorry. We're
Unknown Speaker 13:29
all
Unknown Speaker 13:31
True. You.
Unknown Speaker 14:49
The oneness of
Unknown Speaker 14:51
the universe
Unknown Speaker 14:53
is love and.
Unknown Speaker 15:00
Yeah, I think we all swim in that conundrum today.
Unknown Speaker 15:05
We're just a lot of us. We're keeps picking the scab, and we're not making it any better by just sucking down 100 more 1000 more memes a day on Tiktok or something like that's not going to help you. It's not even if you think like it's just keeps pushing you actually what you want to see. It knows what you want to see. Now it just gives you more of it. And now every day you're like, I believe it even more. Whatever the thing is, you believe
Unknown Speaker 15:32
it's a problem, like we have to curate our own consciousness, and that's why I push into
Unknown Speaker 15:40
into the story a bit more about taking pauses, taking breaks, getting back to old systems, like walking, sort of like Duncan is saying, like the real work is often right in front of you. It's like, if you haven't taken care of, like, your house and your family and you like, you know, how do you expect to be a change agent in the world of any worth when you know so you have to, you have to kind of start from the ground up and from the inside out, and that's why inner work matters. But you need to. It's easy these days to get into delusion, so it's actually quite nuanced, and most people are just flailing
Unknown Speaker 16:23
as above, so below and, and that's kind of the macrocosm and more microcosm with your music. I'm I'm always fascinated with with creators and and
Unknown Speaker 16:39
people who get into this really amazing flow state where they're kind of connected through source and letting this art flow through them, and they're just kind of a vessel for that. And I'm just, I'm curious what your process is, and is that your feeling when you when you go to make music and you perform, or you hold space like I'm just an empty vessel. Or is there?
Unknown Speaker 17:06
Is there, you know, mental like, oh, I need to set up this song and to abide by these musical theory, I'd say, protocol. I mean, it kind of depends on the situation. But, you know, if people have bought a ticket and they're there to be entertained, essentially, even if they want other things too. You do have a responsibility to put on a show like we're playing with our ascent. We're playing with our attention all day long. And so in that regard,
Unknown Speaker 17:35
you're using your discursive mind to say, like built on what I know and my experience. How can I, how can I keep your attention and maybe surprise you? And that's a good show, but you also need to leave room for the numinous and for the unexpected, and that's you have to keep that door open. And I think different engagements can have. That door can be bigger or smaller, but it's, I always like to keep it there.
Unknown Speaker 18:03
And how much of it
Unknown Speaker 18:07
do you like? I know part of the film
Unknown Speaker 18:12
it showed you before a show, and you were like, Man, I don't know what to play, and I am a little little nervous that people will pick up on it. And you know, like you were talking about in the beginning, like you want to serve other people, and that's that's part of it. And so I'm curious, how much of this experience do you curate for other people, like, I'm making this music for other people, and how much of it is, like I'm making it because I like the sounds coming out. Like, I just resonate with these sounds and and I hope other people like it too, because this is what feels good to me. I think it has to be the latter. Like, if you're not coming from place of what's exciting you personally, it's, it's probably not that interesting to other people.
Unknown Speaker 18:58
So it has to, it has to touch that spot inside that's like, Oh, this is really cool or exciting, or I'm liking these sounds, or it turns me on, because
Unknown Speaker 19:08
we're all human beings. You know, inevitably, that's like some other people, hopefully share that same authentic feeling. Otherwise, it's, it's you're kind of guessing and pandering in a way that you're, you're kind of working from the outside or from the sidelines. It's like, just start from, like, the source of, and I think that's always my North Star is,
Unknown Speaker 19:30
you know what chord or sound is? Is kind of pulling me in that moment, like, truthfully, is right in that moment. You know what I want to hear next?
Unknown Speaker 19:40
I, I I, I studied music theory for a few years, but I hated reading music and kind of following this protocol of like, Oh, these chords are supposed to follow these chords and all that stuff. So I'm not a, you know, a good musician, but I really like tuning my guitar and like weird open tunings. Yeah.
Unknown Speaker 20:00
And I'll put a capo on a random fret, and I'll play and have no idea what I'm playing. I have no idea the notes, I have no idea the chords. And it's this freeing moment that I feel like you kind of talked about of like singing in this language you made up where your mind can turn off, and your that helps me get into this flow state, and I feel like you talked about it with this made up language, like it allows your brain to stop associating with words and meaning and you're able to just open up.
Unknown Speaker 20:32
So yeah, I'm curious what your relationship is to words and language in your music. Well, I think I was particularly relating to when I'm making music and and playing inside the ceremony space that I don't tend to use words anymore. I used to a tiny bit, and it's not that I wouldn't I just found that the more like
Unknown Speaker 20:59
metaphoric I could keep it or open and music by itself, inherently, is that way, it just gave people more of a landscape to have an experience, versus it being too defined.
Unknown Speaker 21:12
And I started playing around with like gloss Alisa type singing or sort of, it's sort of like fouls and making. There's no specific language to it back in 2012 and at this point, it's been so long that I don't think twice about it. And what I like about is it feels kind of primordial. It feels
Unknown Speaker 21:36
I think Robin Carhart Harris,
Unknown Speaker 21:40
in the film talks about, you know, what kind of music works well, and he says it's sort of like mother to sing to baby, in a way, is this stuff that, like, gets breaks down typical language structures? I was like, Oh, that's pretty similar to what I've been playing around with. In a way, it's kind of a goo goo Gaga thing. It's baby talk, in a sense, so I don't know, yeah, like I said, I haven't thought about it as much in the last number of years, just because I've been doing it for so long.
Unknown Speaker 22:09
I have a couple of musician friends that you know, and different people have different feelings towards it, but I have a couple friends express that they
Unknown Speaker 22:22
have,
Unknown Speaker 22:25
they have a hard time seeing live music because they're like, stuck in their head being like, Oh, I wouldn't have played that note. Or, Oh, how are you, you know, if, like, there's just stuck in their head like, Oh, what do you? What do you, you know, what are you using and to make that sound and all this stuff, and they can't just, like enjoy the music. And it's kind of like that, that child like mind, where you're just able to
Unknown Speaker 22:49
be oblivious to most things and just enjoy it as it is.
Unknown Speaker 22:55
And so I'm curious, when you're in ceremony yourself, like you're taking mushrooms,
Unknown Speaker 23:01
do you like to play music? Do you like to listen to music? What's your relationship to music in that space? Personally, I usually listen to something I'm working on.
Unknown Speaker 23:12
So, like, I'm releasing a new long form guidance album in the top of the year, and that's the third in a series I have called the soundtrack for the psychedelic practitioner. So this one's six over six hours. And,
Unknown Speaker 23:28
you know, so I guess I'm biased, but I that's one of the only times I'm really listening to my own music, is either I'm mixing it or I'm in that space, ceremony space, and I'm kind of want to learn from the medicine, like, okay, like I'm here to, I'm here to experience it in a completely different way. And I also haven't found something every now and then I used other people's music, but rarely, because I find that what I mean making it essentially for me, like we were talking about, right? And so I want to, then, when you experience it in that space, it's a complete, like, I don't know how it was made, or who made it. I'm just like, experiencing it's like a nut. It's like an other, and that's the real that's kind of why I made it really so I could it, could guide me through those spaces.
Unknown Speaker 24:16
I i watched a documentary many years ago, and I don't know if you heard of this about music being a therapy for Alzheimer's and dementia, because I think your
Unknown Speaker 24:30
the part of your brain that processes music is very close to memory, and so people that kind of lost their whole memory are listening to old songs from like, their childhood, and they suddenly are like, Oh, I remember all these things in my life again. And it could be someone with dementia who is just non verbal and just they suddenly, you know, get back all these memories. And
Unknown Speaker 24:55
so, yeah, I resonate with that as like, if you eating mushrooms, is there.
Unknown Speaker 25:00
P and you made those songs related to a period in your time, your life that you're deeply, strongly connected to, like bringing them up in the space of like, Oh, I remember that time, or that memory, or that emotion that I was feeling when I was making it or and just kind of like an open platter for you to dive into your subconscious, in a way. So that's cool. It can be, yeah, I mean, when you make music or listen to music, even actually, you know, it uses all sorts of parts of your brain. It's, it's not that dissimilar to when on the psychedelic state. It's using all these different parts of your brain. And there's been some pretty interesting research that was brought to my attention by Ivy Ross and Susan magsamen. We're talking on my podcast about a book they put out called your brain on art. And there's a lot of really interesting studies about even, like longevity, on how it adds, like, significant time on your life just by engaging in creativity, and that can be on the simplest level of even like listening to music with your full attention brain, it's sort of like this nutrient how it connects different parts of your brain. So even probably like singing in the shower does the same thing, I would guess.
Unknown Speaker 26:18
So little backstory to this question. I'll try to keep it as succinct as possible. But I was talking with a medicine man that I've worked with a lot in Peru, and he told the story about when he turned eight. It was his eighth birthday, his dad and his grandpa came up to him and said, Okay, you're eight. You're a man. Now time to be initiated into, you know, as a medicine man. And so they gave him a bottle of tobacco water. And they're like, All right, go out into the jungle, and we'll see you in a week. And so little eight year old boy, he's going out in the jungle alone, um, no shelter, no food, no anything, and he's drinking this tobacco water, which wouldn't recommend anyone do that, but purge, yeah, and he started hearing these songs, and he comes back a week later, and he goes to his dad and his grandpa, and he's like, Hey, what I just started hearing these songs, like, What are these songs? And they're like, welcome. Those are medicine songs. Like, that's the family medicine songs. And they were like, without them actually
Unknown Speaker 27:31
singing the songs, he was able to kind of download them from source, if you want to say it like that. And I'm curious for you, given that backstory, like, have you kind of, quote, unquote, downloaded songs when you're in a mushroom space?
Unknown Speaker 27:49
Well, all the ceremony records are recorded and improvised live inside mushroom ceremonies. So I guess I could say all of that music is, if you want to use word downloaded, I don't, where does any improvisation come from? I don't know, right? I don't know, but it's being birthed in that moment. And I don't think that's particularly unique, but you have to set up yourself for that sort of situation. And so that's that's just an important part for me, of of guiding ceremonies is that element of improvisation so that it's not like something thought out initially. You know, you're thinking out with the instruments, and you you rehearse that fluency, but
Unknown Speaker 28:35
when you're in that space, yeah, you want it
Unknown Speaker 28:39
to be in the moment.
Unknown Speaker 28:42
So set, setting, preparation, integration, are fundamental for any psychedelic journey, and I hear something similar with musicians as well, of like, they have a certain ritual that they do like before they're making a song or performing to get them into that flow state. How, first of all, I'm I assume that you have a ritual or a practice for this. And I'm curious if, how similar are they
Unknown Speaker 29:11
to preparing for a psychedelic journey or integrating a psychedelic journey? Well,
Unknown Speaker 29:18
I guess the short answer is yes, I have a practice that's like when I'm playing shows, like just the half hour before, and then it's sort of working out from there.
Unknown Speaker 29:29
But I would say playing for ceremonies is more all encompassing into into your life. I suppose it's kind of like being in dieta and slightly different kind of rehearsal too,
Unknown Speaker 29:44
but I think at its best, it is bleeding into all aspects of your life. And that's not always very convenient for me or practical, but that's at its best.
Unknown Speaker 29:59
And then.
Unknown Speaker 30:00
Have been times where I don't feel as tapped in,
Unknown Speaker 30:04
or I don't feel as prepared. I should say this is kind of rare, but because of circumstance and sometimes those have been the most magical sets, you know, and so I don't know. I think a lot of that preparation is probably my own psychology of trying to feel prepared, psychologically and largely
Unknown Speaker 30:24
performing is a mental game, largely and
Unknown Speaker 30:31
and you so it's just how everyone works with that differently, you know, artists that I know,
Unknown Speaker 30:38
and it's how did you just feel,
Unknown Speaker 30:42
kind of engaged with what you have to do, because it's pretty crazy, and you don't really try and think about it,
Unknown Speaker 30:49
so you try not to, but there's so many aspects to consider that it can be overwhelming, it's a lot of stress, and it
Unknown Speaker 30:57
happens. It has to happen at a specific time and place, and it's last steps that went to get to that. So
Unknown Speaker 31:05
it's easy to be wrapped up in the details, but I suppose that's kind of what defines the professional versus the amateurs. Like, well, you just do it, you just show up, and then the next time, you do it again, and you do it again, and you don't attach as much to the results, hopefully, which is hard to do. You just kind of be proud of, like showing up.
Unknown Speaker 31:27
It can be really hard not to attach your ego to to the outcome or the experience, of course, of course. But, I mean, there's a lot of variables there, so, you know, you have to, you have to try and recognize all that too, and just nobody bats 1000 so you just do, you do your best. That's what's the most important. It's like you do your best.
Unknown Speaker 31:50
How? And maybe this has shifted during your life. But you know, you said that you dealt with depression a lot when you're younger, and now, as you get older, it's more shifted towards anxiety. You're talking about burnout, you know, after doing a bunch of shows and and you and your wife were sitting on the couch for a segment talking about, like, sometimes when you try to hold everything in the universe, like it just breaks you, or gets you to that point where you're like, I can't fucking do this anymore. You know, how do you how do you deal with that? Like, do you have a
Unknown Speaker 32:28
Yeah, what? Both mentally, emotionally, physical, physically routines?
Unknown Speaker 32:34
Well, I think it's getting hard, harder and harder for all of us to hold it all. I think a sense of overwhelm is very common today. And my relationship to Rada and like that, kind of being the core of the tree, and that it can withstand more storms when I feel like that feels right and good.
Unknown Speaker 32:58
So that's a sense of nourishment that kind of goes back to what Duncan's saying, like working on the things that are right in front of us, because that relationships really are the crucible of your soul. Work. And it starts with yourself, and it starts with probably, if you have a partner, whoever's literally the closest to you or your family, and then it goes to your friends, and it goes to your community. And you know, way out there would be the public space, and some of us have reversed that. You know, it's like, I deal with the public and then my life's a mess or whatever, right?
Unknown Speaker 33:28
We're meant to deal with those things right in front of us. So in that regard,
Unknown Speaker 33:35
I, you know, it's sort of a day to day thing, but I think habits and routines can be good, and having structure and staying engaged in the creative space is really important for me to keep my head on straight.
Unknown Speaker 33:50
So on one hand, it can be stressful having to always be like performing or doing things. On the other hand, it's actually kind of what forces me, then to stay engaged, and that's actually helpful for my mental state, because I'm playing, I'm rehearsing, and
Unknown Speaker 34:05
that's pretty critical. There's some sort of creative expression. Sense of purpose, I think, is really important, and nature is important for me, like that always brings me back down to earth. Pun intended.
Unknown Speaker 34:21
Those are probably the most important things you know. Love, having expressions of love, whether pets or people or the planet or whatever it is for you,
Unknown Speaker 34:32
and what, what would you say are have been your biggest takeaways from, from working with mushrooms, and I don't know if you have, like, one or a couple experiences that were like that totally changed my mind or my life, or is it every time you feel like, oh my god, I definitely couldn't, like, distill it into anything, because I would almost feel like a disservice to whatever it is. I would just say it's humbling.
Unknown Speaker 35:01
Mean, it's humbling to the mind, and the sense of ego that thinks like a I need to figure all this out, or I have figured it all out, or there's a sense of separateness, and it sort of is medicine for me, about feeling like, in some ways, you already have figured it all out, or something like we all in here it is like, oh, and that you're not as separate. So it's a lovingly sense. That's actually why I titled this new record lovingly that's coming out. That's the new long form record, because to me, that is the energy
Unknown Speaker 35:32
of what is. And I can hear people like, What the fuck are you talking about? Like you look at like, what's going on in the Middle East, or it's like, that's not lovingly. And I'm like, You're you're not. I don't think you're really hearing me, you know. And
Unknown Speaker 35:45
actually, I don't even want to explain it, it's like, I think we actually all know.
Unknown Speaker 35:50
We all know. It's just a sense, how about on the most fundamental, literal level, we all come from moms, okay, all of us, it's always been that way. And you said as as above, so below. Well,
Unknown Speaker 36:05
everything comes from other circles too, like us, supernovas. And, you know, there's the great circle of the universe. So there is, I would assume, some kind of great mother. I don't mean to anthropomorphize it. I just mean to say that there is this thing that it probably keeps going like that. And in that way, you can't be outside of that. That is the lovingly aspect of creation. And all I can say is, if I did have to try and quote, unquote, summarize various psychedelic experiences and medicines,
Unknown Speaker 36:35
it would be that there's some kind of engine of creation. And it's almost like it's 51 it's 50.1%
Unknown Speaker 36:44
good or something, and then the all the other stuff. But that's enough to keep the wheel of creation turning, and thank God that there's that point one, because that means that that's what we always can go back into the mother's arms, and if it wasn't there, that's true chaos and hell and but I've continually experienced when I think there's a boundary condition like that, even when I feel like, Oh God, this is, this is the chaos right now, eventually, somehow I can sense or fall into that other condition beyond that that feels magnanimous.
Unknown Speaker 37:41
Ask any child,
Unknown Speaker 37:46
was this world created perfectly?
Unknown Speaker 37:51
And any child said, yes, it's a perfect world.
Unknown Speaker 38:03
We do well to remind ourselves that it's Not all real complex.
Unknown Speaker 38:09
Everything is simple.
Unknown Speaker 38:15
Everything
Unknown Speaker 38:48
we're all gifted.
Unknown Speaker 38:53
We all possess a genius which can stay locked up inside us,
Unknown Speaker 38:59
Life after life until it's nurtured out into the opening.
Unknown Speaker 39:35
Love is the highest truth.
Unknown Speaker 39:40
Truth is the greatest good one love desire is truth.
Unknown Speaker 39:59
I know I can try.
Unknown Speaker 40:00
Transform the nation by saying, everyone go outside, stand barefoot on the mother's surface and declare,
Unknown Speaker 40:06
I am soul and I belong here,
Unknown Speaker 40:12
just to drop a catalyst like That
Unknown Speaker 40:15
or transform the global psyche.
Unknown Speaker 40:21
Stand up. All
Unknown Speaker 40:42
right? Under
Unknown Speaker 41:06
there's a profound Turning Point happening on Earth.
Unknown Speaker 41:10
Wow,
Unknown Speaker 41:12
we're gonna stick around,
Unknown Speaker 41:16
stick around and watch a nation wake up.
Unknown Speaker 41:20
Wow,
Unknown Speaker 41:32
it's so hard for me to
Unknown Speaker 41:36
stay in that space, you know? I mean, fundamentally, it makes so much sense, and it feels just home, right? And without any words, it's just this feeling and but then the monkey mind, well, are you on social media? I mean, do you look at anything worst? Yeah. I mean, probably why you're not feeling it. Yeah, exactly. I gotta curate your own consciousness. You know it you, if you were, this is a luxury, but if you were to be, I don't know, working out somewhere, and you're outside most of the day, and you're working on a project, and part of that has to do with your community, and you're eating your meals and doing your work,
Unknown Speaker 42:16
you, I'm guessing you feel pretty good. And some people might see like, well, that's sticking your head in the sand. Am I like, Well, I'm just saying, you know, everything you need to know. You don't need to know, technically, who the president is. Or it's like, you know, you don't need to know. But right now, we all want to know. I want to know. Like, I care about this election and so forth deeply. But the same time, there are these dichotomies of like, well, how do you swim and weave in this information sickness and be an agent of hopefully positive change, but not adding to just more asleep divisiveness and yet not be then utterly in despair,
Unknown Speaker 42:58
because you know Way more than we're built to know as animal machines that have evolved this way you know more today in one day than probably you knew a long time ago in, like your half your life, or something, you know,
Unknown Speaker 43:13
hundreds of years ago.
Unknown Speaker 43:16
You You said something in the film
Unknown Speaker 43:19
in relation to the farm of you know, wanting to your do your best, and a little worried about
Unknown Speaker 43:27
causing more harm than good. And you're like, I need help, you know? I need to bring on really strong connections with people that that know what they're doing and kind of fill in those gaps. What what do you feel like those gaps are, and where do you feel like you welcome the most community support in this vision?
Unknown Speaker 43:48
Well, what we talked about about technology and information, I think learning from the past, learning, learning from elders, particularly indigenous elders. Of course, we want to that's 1000s of years of knowledge that we wouldn't want to have the hubris to be like, alright, let's just do this however we want and start now. It's like honoring that past is important.
Unknown Speaker 44:17
There's so many things to consider. I mean, there's policy questions about access and safety, but there's also questions about meeting the moment and speed and scale. That's something I think about a lot, and I think that music has the potential to scale and be accessible to people and potentially be the most effective guide from a harm reduction point of view, so that it's positive than anything else.
Unknown Speaker 44:47
And that's one of the reasons I made the film, and that's just something that's like a flag I'm waving a lot because it's not talked about as much or taken very seriously. And I think that's a mistake. I.
Unknown Speaker 45:01
What, what was the creative process for making the film? You know, how long did it take? What were kind of the hardest parts of it? What was the most rewarding? Took three years. What was most rewarding was working with a wonderful team and
Unknown Speaker 45:17
talented people. It takes a lot of people to make a movie, and having that be funded by some really wonderful donors.
Unknown Speaker 45:26
The challenging part was doing it while doing everything else in my life, like, you know, anytime I went somewhere, I'd also have to put on this director's hat of like, should I film this? And then, if so, filming it, and getting other people to help and kind of pointing out, we need this, we need that. And then being like, hold on a second, I have to go put to go play a set, you know, and but make sure you put a camera over here. And, you know, it's like, that was crazy, just fun, but it was crazy, and I got very exhausted, especially just, it's already a lot to lug around my gear, but then bring some camera gear around, and I had some folks who were helping us film and, you know, bringing them in and just organizing all that.
Unknown Speaker 46:04
And then we did a lot of filming, and then when we got into post production, like editorial work and stuff like just having the time, there's, you know, so many meetings and so much work you have to do and going through footage and working on the edits. I mean,
Unknown Speaker 46:18
I couldn't put everything else completely on hold and say, like, okay, in three years, I'll come back to my music career. I had to keep making records, and I was working on the soundtrack to this at the same time, which is the this, the Documentary Soundtracks out now, and that that's like, my, my latest record, which is all new music,
Unknown Speaker 46:37
and that actually is part of the mother album, which is this lovingly six hour album. So it's like, I had to make the six hour album. I had to finish it so that I could make the 10 shorter songs that are on. And
Unknown Speaker 46:50
that was a heavy lift. It was a, that was a that's a lot of music. So it's just like juggling all that, in addition to life was been, has been a ride. And right now, where I'm on a film Tour, where we're showing the film. And like, you know, I'll have one or two days home a month, which is crazy, because, you know, I went to the doctor this morning, and maybe you have to do a mechanic thing, and then all the other things you have to do,
Unknown Speaker 47:15
and you miss out on everything else going on, like your friends invite you to a show or a dinner people are having as you know. So I've missed out on a lot of that in the last while trying to get these, these things across the finish line. But I believe in the message, and when you work on something that hard, I do want to do the service to it to be like, let me give it the best,
Unknown Speaker 47:40
the best effort to share it with people, and it is quite satisfying to share with people,
Unknown Speaker 47:47
but yes, it's been a lot.
Unknown Speaker 47:50
Maybe this hasn't been so hard for you, because you play a lot of shows and you kind of hold that space and like you're talking about before, you just have to be a professional, and you just got to do it.
Unknown Speaker 48:03
Something that I've heard from a lot of people that that are filming a movie or filming something, is that
Unknown Speaker 48:11
I feel like as a some, and this is the same with just like someone taking a picture of you, like, I feel like there's something in a lot of people's brains, myself included, like, oh, I have to put on a show now. Or like, I have to put on this costume or this mask, or like, this, this thing to be presentable. And
Unknown Speaker 48:30
hopefully people like it. If they're looking on the other side of the screen right and I hear musicians, teachers, like, educators, influencers, everyone who's who's performing for other people, right?
Unknown Speaker 48:46
So I'm curious, like, Was that hard for you, or was that? Did that come easy and you're just like, I'm just being myself, whether there's a camera or not.
Unknown Speaker 48:56
Well, I've been kind of, like, wanting to be a center of attention since I was a little kid. I mean, I was like a class clown third grade, and I started doing acting when I was in fifth grade, and that was a early way to, like, do that. And I actually kept pursuing that. And I was as a professional actor for most of my 20s in New York. I got an MFA in acting, and so I got really into that world.
Unknown Speaker 49:23
And so I was very, very fluent with what that felt like, and all the different shapes and sizes. And when I got to make this film,
Unknown Speaker 49:33
I majored in film, actually in undergrad. And as a photographer was my day job when I was an actor. So it kind of actually brought together a lot of interests of mine. And then, of course, the music element on the score.
Unknown Speaker 49:46
And so for myself,
Unknown Speaker 49:50
I think just this, it's just like, in a modern sense, like anyone, it's kind of crazy, like, if you're a musician, or whatever it kind of expected, you.
Unknown Speaker 50:00
To open up your life, which wasn't the case back in the day. Like, yeah, we want to know everything about you. We want to see reels at your home. And we want to see not just your music, like, I want it all. I've always been very open, you know. And I do, I do retreats where it's like, we're with people for a week. It's, it's a lot of like, access and immediacy to people. I do a Patreon where I do monthly zooms. I've done hundreds of podcasts of my own and probably 1000 others. So it's like I've it's also just like you get, as I'm sure you feel, you get used to it.
Unknown Speaker 50:32
You get used to it. So when we were shooting the dock
Unknown Speaker 50:36
there, of course, there are times you need to set up a shot, right and but
Unknown Speaker 50:42
I don't know, life's already blurred into this weird place where, like, what's real, what isn't real, what's what's
Unknown Speaker 50:48
everything's so ephemeral. And I think I got to a point with the filming. At first, it's probably strange, but eventually you're just like, I don't fucking know. It's just like, shoot this. We have to get that. You just, there's so much you don't use right, that you get to a point like, I don't know if we use it. So you just like, Shoot it, shoot this, right? Get that. And that's good because, and inevitably, once you start editing it together, you still are like, oh, we need this particular shot, and then you have to go do it. Like, we didn't all that footage. We don't have it. And there's a whole filmmaking adage about show versus tell, especially with documentaries, and I really tried to adhere to that as best I could I can originally, I didn't want to have any voiceover, and I didn't want to have any lower thirds, like little titles on the screen. And I did that initially, and a lot of test audiences were quite confused, like, Who is this? Why are you there? You know, I mean, so piece by piece, I just had to add in things here and there to kind of connect the dots. But there have been some films I saw. There was a Billie Eilish
Unknown Speaker 51:52
documentary. It's on Apple film, Apple TV. It's too long, but boy, did they do a good job. There's not a single lower third, and there's zero voiceover, and you understand what's going on. They had incredible access and incredible amount of footage. And if you want your film to be verite, which I wanted a lot of mine, to be that way, and it is that way,
Unknown Speaker 52:15
it's a risk, because if you don't capture in those verite moments, the thing you need to show in order to tell the story, you're kind of screwed, and you just have expensive B roll.
Unknown Speaker 52:27
But if you do, if you can tell the story that way, it's far more exciting, because a we're seeing something happening on the screen, and it feels like the viewer has access. They're like, Oh, I'm there, as opposed to me telling you about it, and maybe there's footage or pictures while I'm talking, which is a typical duck. So it's a narrative documentary, and I do talk to people, and that's why it's a bit of a hybrid. It's an unusual format,
Unknown Speaker 52:55
but
Unknown Speaker 52:58
it's, I guess some you could say it's not really a doc. I guess it's, you know, it's more of a narrative film, but I keep calling it a documentary.
Unknown Speaker 53:07
Yeah. I mean it, it was a beautiful film. I watched it last night, as I told you before we hopped on, and it was, it was really, really well done. And thank you. I feel like touches upon a lot of existential questions that I think a lot of people are struggling with in the world, but also
Unknown Speaker 53:27
gives you just practical solutions. And also
Unknown Speaker 53:31
the music in the background is just like a really peaceful and really
Unknown Speaker 53:37
it's a nice experience to go through. And, yeah, we just want to inspire people, really, to engage with their own path.
Unknown Speaker 53:46
You know, people have to decide what they want to engage with, but it's the method was for an emotional response out of people.
Unknown Speaker 53:53
And how did you,
Unknown Speaker 53:56
you know, you interview a lot of people. You talk to a lot of people during the film. Are these close friends? Did you want to bring in certain people for certain expertise, or how did you come across picking the people in the film? I mean, a lot of them were people that I actually was just kind of coming across in the last three years. Some of them are people I'd met in the past that I wanted to feature. I thought they'd be a good voice. But,
Unknown Speaker 54:23
you know, like, I met so chilasha at Esalen at Enfield wheel, this like conference we did there about psilocybin, and so that was like six months before, and I was like, she'd be great, you know, or is awesome? I haven't, yeah, I actually met her in 2017
Unknown Speaker 54:40
in Peru. She was my best friend's neighbor living in Saudi Alisa, and she came over, like, for dinner, just randomly stopped by, and we just, like, went to kirtan and went to these temples. And,
Unknown Speaker 54:55
yeah, she's such a powerful practice. And
Unknown Speaker 54:59
in.
Unknown Speaker 55:00
Incredible lineage, and, you know, really amazing family. So I was, I was like, surprised to see her on the film, and was really happy to see that. And yeah, she's, she's doing amazing work. And yeah, it was, yeah, it was cool just to see that connection. That's awesome. Yeah, she's doing some cool retreats, if people are looking for that.
Unknown Speaker 55:18
I mean, it was, so is a hodgepodge like that, and we're like, the New Earth retreat scene like that was something I was just doing. And then as one of those things, I'm like, I think we should film this. I'm not sure if this would be part of the film or not, but I just be like, I have a feeling we should film it, and so you just try to scramble it together. Or, I was in London for a gig, and I had met Leor, Dr Leor Rossman at like through Robin I was visiting people in Imperial College, their whole team, research team, and we had a big dinner Down by the docks, where they all were living in their houseboats, and this beautiful dinner. And Leo and his wife cooked us this wonderful, like, Israeli meal. And so I was just in London, I was thinking, like, oh, we need another, like, scientific voice. I wonder if he's available, like tomorrow, and he was and then I had to find someone to shoot it, you know, and then we found this person. So it's just like things like that,
Unknown Speaker 56:13
in that way, it was a document of, like, weaving through the world.
Unknown Speaker 56:19
So I know you have a super busy day, so I could keep talking forever, but you have a couple more questions that then I'll let you go. But sure,
Unknown Speaker 56:30
we used to ask this question to every single one of our guests, and then kind of faded off for a while, and then I only ask it for for special occasions. And I feel like you, you're, you're definitely one of those equations.
Unknown Speaker 56:43
If mushrooms had the microphone and could say one thing to the whole human race, what do you think they would say?
Unknown Speaker 56:52
I would say, Listen to listen to one of these Mushroom Records of mine. They wouldn't. They just say music. It'd be music. It'd be music.
Unknown Speaker 57:01
So where can people see this film? Follow your work, listen to your music, both live and record. Yeah. Music for mushrooms.com
Unknown Speaker 57:10
or eastforest.org,
Unknown Speaker 57:13
eastforce.org. Also has like my music shows and links to like my Patreon or podcast and all that stuff. Music for mushrooms.com is everything about the film and all the screenings we have. It's in a national release right now, but it's limited, so it's you see if there's a screening near you, but we're going to be doing some digital, global screenings soon, a series of them. So by far the best thing to do is get on the mailing list and we'll tell you when that is, and then you can see the film that way. And at some of those online events, we're going to do things where, like, of course, we'll have Q and A's and panels and things, but I'm going to share some concerts, like the final concert in the film. We filmed the whole thing, and so I'll be able to share that, which is a 90 minute ceremony concert with, like, a multi camera shoot. So it should be a fun event that's gonna be in December, I believe,
Unknown Speaker 58:04
sweet. Yeah, I highly recommend everyone sees this film.
Unknown Speaker 58:09
I already, you know, is, like, less than 12 hours ago that I saw it, and I've already been telling everyone you got to see it. So highly, highly recommend it for everyone to tune in.
Unknown Speaker 58:21
Yeah, thanks man for for tuning in. Appreciate it. Thank you. Yeah, good time. Yeah. And thank you everyone for tuning in to another episode of the mushroom revival podcast. Wherever you're tuning in from, from around the world. And if you like the show and you want to support it, we don't have, like, a direct financial way for you to do that. We don't have a Patreon, but we do have a kind of a mother brand, so to speak, mushroom revival. And we have a whole line of functional mushroom products, from gummies, powders, capsules, tinctures.
Unknown Speaker 58:59
Also my newest book, The Little Book of mushrooms is on there as well. Well, cute coffee table book 75 different mushrooms. And we also, if you don't want to spend any money, this is totally fine. We have a bunch of free content as well. We have a bunch of free ebooks and blog posts and everything from cooking mushrooms to micro dosing to ecology mushrooms, you name it. And
Unknown Speaker 59:22
we also have a giveaway going on. So if you want to enter wins, free mushroom goodies, we pick a winner once a month. And yeah, if you if you learn something cool, there's a cool topic of conversation that that resonated with you in this conversation, tell your friends, you know, tell your community, tell a random person in the grocery store like
Unknown Speaker 59:45
and go see the film. It's a really good time. So thanks everyone, and as always, much love amid the spores. Be With You.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
