Mushroom Dyes and Pigments with Julie Beeler
Alisa Nappa
Nature is filled with an incredible array of colors, some of which can only come from mushrooms. We chat with artist Julie Beeler, who has dedicated her life to studying the dyes and pigments from mushrooms, and even created an entire mushroom dye atlas so people can reference what colors from from each mushroom. Join us for this colorful episode.
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TRANSCRIPT
Alex 0:11 Welcome, welcome, you are listening to the mushroom revival podcast. This is your host, Alex Dora. And we are absolutely obsessed with the power of mushrooms. And we bring on experts and guests from all around the world to geek out with us and go down a mushroom rabbit hole to everything from surface level topics to niche, very deep in depth, fungal culture. So today on the show, we have Julie Beeler. And we're going to talk about fungal dyes and everything in the modern art world. So, Julie, how are you doing today? Unknown Speaker 0:46 I'm doing great. Thanks for having me. Alex 0:49 Great. And for people who don't know you, and they're tuning in from all around the world. Why don't you introduce yourself and the little listeners? What, what's going on in your world? Speaker 2 1:01 Sure. So I'm Julie Beeler. And I'm an artist, designer and educator as well as myco file and I have a flower farm where I grow all kinds of natural dyes, and I incorporate those into my work along with all of the mushrooms that I forge and work with for dyes and pigments. And recently, I created the mushroom color Atlas as a resource and reference for everyone who's curious about mushrooms and beautiful. And so colors derived from them. I'm in southwest Washington, located in Trout Lake at the base of Mount Adams and different Pinto National Forest. Alex 1:46 And how did you get into the natural dye space and further into mushroom dies? Speaker 2 1:51 Yeah, you know, I had been working with textiles for some time. And I wanted to start to design and create my own fabric and I knew about natural dyes. But at the same time that I was pivoting to do that I was you know, going through kind of a personal change. And I thought I finally had the time to do something I've always wanted to do since I was young. And that was learned about the funghi Kingdom start to understand mushroom identification take courses. So I signed up for my local Oregon Mycological Society. And immediately after signing up, I thought I wonder if mushrooms might color so I did a quick Google search. And lo and behold, I found Merriam Rice's book mushrooms for dyes, paper pigments and myco sticks. And down the rabbit hole, I went and had been working with mushrooms for color ever since. Alex 2:43 And what exactly is a myco Pikmin or mushroom die? Speaker 2 2:49 Well, you know, mushrooms contain chemical compounds that create color. And in fact, Alyssa Allen is the one who coined the term micro pigments, which is really, really cool. So these pigment compounds, they're different depending on the genus and species of the mushroom. Some of these compounds are actually very similar to what you find in plants. But what's really exciting is there are some pigment compounds that are unique only to mushrooms. When we think about mushrooms for color, you can get and work with pigments or you can work with dyes, which are really kind of two different things. And understanding like you know dyes, they're not a particle, right, they are something that can be dissolved, the molecules are desirable, they're absorbed into water, and they can bind to whatever surface they want to whether that's fabric or paper. But we can also work with pigments from mushrooms and the pigments are actually a solid particle. And that sits on top of whatever it colors. So we've got a couple of different ways to work with these colorants these chemical compounds found within mushrooms, which leads to a lot of amazing opportunity. Alex 4:07 And do we know approximately how long have they been used for around the world? Do we have any early records from people of different cultures of using these these mushroom dyes? Speaker 2 4:23 Yeah, we do. You know, that's a really good question. The use of mushrooms for dyes and pigments is actually longer than we kind of previously thought thanks to the research of Dominique CARDONE and others who published this. We know that in Italian manuscripts in the 15th century, there was this common element used when they wanted to achieve that crimson red color from the insect die kermis and they refer to it as Popo or Oh Popo which is references gara ko or Garrick and today we refer to that mushroom Rome as a gara con Larsa phoma sophisti analysis, and there's also reference to using the gara con in Paris and the goblin die works and in Dutch manuscripts. So, you know, a funky have been used on kind of all continents as a source of color, Europe, North Africa, Americas Asia, but historically, you know, people would reference mushrooms primarily for medicinal or edible purposes. And you know, what we found in looking back through this historical text is often our understanding and use of it as colors is limited, because the knowledge at that time of the fungi was limited, that taxonomy was incomplete. And it wasn't very well known for dying. So it made it even more rare. And then sometimes there was confusion on classification, and then that would cause doubt, and so forth. But yeah, there are examples like another great example is in the Americas, furs were sometimes dyed, with colorants, obtained from bulliet mushrooms. And when you dyed those furs with an alum, Morton, it would give this luxurious golden hue. And there's many other examples of that. But it definitely is more rare. And, really, we have Marian rice to thank, for her work in, you know, starting in the late 60s, all the way up until the mid 2000s, of a tremendous amount of research and experimentation that she did in kind of reviving this and bringing it to us today and all kinds of other people that were involved in making this happen. So it is much more common today than it was historically. Alex 7:03 And do we know why different mushrooms are different colors? Does it serve a biological purpose behind these pigments? Are they attracting animals or insects to carry around their spores? Is it a warning mechanism? Do we have any insight or hypotheses? Speaker 2 7:29 You know, that's a really great question. I think, you know, everything right now, no one exactly knows what the role and the purpose that these pigments play. You know, we do know that a lot of them are these secondary metabolites that happened to contain pigment. But what what was their purpose? Or were they just a byproduct? And are an added bonus? Or like you said, was it used to attract different insects and things like that? I think, from what I've found this, the science isn't really there yet, at this point in time, I'm sure we're going to have an answer. Someday down the road. But you know what's interesting, when you look at these mushrooms, mushrooms themselves are colorful, visually colorful when you see them fruiting. And that doesn't mean that the color you see is actually that chemical pigment compound. And, you know, one of my favorite examples of that is tap and Ella at tomentosa, which is the velvet foot packs, or the Velvet Room roll. And it is like a super cool mushroom, but it's beige. And it's got this like dark brown velvet a foot. And it's not the most colorful mushroom that you'd see out there fruity. But it contains these really unique pigment compounds, terminal Quinones, and it specifically contains at filamentous. And that will make purple and it'll make a golden yellow pigment. And when you combine it with iron ferrous sulfate, it'll make green. So here you've just got these magical colors coming from a rather big dull looking mushroom, you know, but then on the opposite end of the spectrum, like a lot of the bleach you see, especially if you look under the cap and the spore bearing surface, they're like these beautiful yellows and oranges and reds. And that is actually the color you get these orangey reds and yellows from beliefs. So you know, in some cases, you can actually see visually see the color that that mushroom is going to yield so that's really cool. Alex 9:46 And right and so some mushrooms don't look like they have any colors at all and they don't bruise any colors. Some are just inherently brightly colored and then some like, you know, the blue bruising LEED or a lot of philosophy species, they'll actually brews a different color if you you know, press on the mushroom or something, it'll turn blue for different reasons. And so are you have you ever worked with like blue bruising? Billy, or any philosophy species? Like? Would you get a blue dye? Or would you get a totally different color? Depending on what chemicals that you use in the process? Speaker 2 10:31 Yeah, well, you know, everyone's dream is to capture that beautiful, you know, blue that you get from the staining and bruising with a belief. With the beliefs, we know that the grumblings in the pool Vinick acid is what forms that yellow and orange color. And this is also what kind of causes that characteristic blue bruising. But when that mushroom is cut, or bruised and exposed to air that transforms to that blue. And as of this point in time, you can't capture that in a way to get it to bind as a dire pigment. But there is seriously exciting research and developments being done with the blue staining philosophies. And psilocybin. mycologist. And chemists Sydney overseeing Singleton, who is in Eugene, Oregon, has successfully captured that as a pigment and he has dyed wool blue. And that is just unbelievable. And beyond exciting. He's got a Patreon that for all of us who are interested in colors for mushrooms should support to further his research so we can start to find ways to work with that to capture this blue. So that's, you know, a really exciting development because for years it was like, Oh, can't capture it can't get it to bind can't do anything. But really that blue that is getting formed on these mushrooms has some similar behaviors and qualities how you get blue from the plant Indigo so it's really incredible. So it you know, who knows we say for now we can't capture the the blue bruising and staining of beliefs but that can very well change in the near future because Sydney has been able to do it with this philosophy. So super exciting. Alex 12:35 And what about bioluminescent or fluorescent mushrooms that either produce a but bioluminescent hue or when you shine UV light, it produces that that kind of I don't know if you define it as a pigment, but is that possible? Has anyone ever tried to do that? Speaker 2 12:58 Yeah, yeah. You know, I I don't know about luminescent itself. I have never seen that property or aspect but definitely fluorescent. And I mean, there's so many exciting mushrooms faelish What's nice see which is the dyers polypore. It is one of the best beginner die mushrooms produces a whole range of colors. When you shine a UV light on it, it glows in the dark it's fluorescent. Same is the case with unfollows Allah vestments, the Western jacket lantern, does the same thing pi Silithus tinctorius. The dyers puffball are also known as the dog turd mushroom, it's the same thing you know. And so when you're working with these and you're creating pieces, like being able to layer this color in and work with others, you know, with the pie Silithus you can get these beautiful kind of golden yellow browns and you can then bind and layer other colors on top of it, not just from mushrooms, but from the plant world and you start to get these really, really rich and textured and a lot of depth. And then you shine a light on them and they transform and it's just otherworldly to see that happen. So So hypothetically, really exciting. Alex 14:21 You can knit a scarf diet with you know, dyers, puffball, or Jacqueline or mushroom and shine UV light on your scarf and it will glow in the dark. Unknown Speaker 14:31 Absolutely. Yeah, that's awesome. Alex 14:33 Cool. Great. And then what about you know, I know some species like Armillaria their mycelium. I can't remember if it's bioluminescent or fluorescent. But they also have, you know, a melanated sheath on a round the mycelium and I'm not entirely sure. Most species have white mycelium, but I'm sure others have have a range of Colors. Has anyone tried to get dyes from the mycelium? Speaker 2 15:07 You know? That's great question. I don't know, I have never tried and I haven't talked to anyone who has tried. However, there are a lot of fungal micro organisms that produce pigment, you know that you can literally grow, you know, these colorant factories and Siri Robinson is doing that with small team funky down at Oregon State University. What we do know is that those melanins even though they're water soluble, they'll tend to polymerize into this black substance that doesn't bind. So we haven't been able to capture that pigment and get it to bind and adhere. But again, it's, you know, who knows things. There's so much rapid development and changes and research that's being done that maybe we will find a way to combine it with something else and be able to, to capture that and start to get pigment from from the mycelium itself. Alex 16:14 Actually, I did hear about people making bio Luna bioluminescent beer. And using I think it was a genetically modified Saccharomyces service EI. Which is a yeast. So yeah, I don't see why not. But that's probably a different Yeah, it's not technically dying. But But um, similar kind of, I don't know, if you would define that as a pigment. I don't know what to call it. But, but yeah, color. Speaker 2 16:46 It's a color, right. And that's the thing like to be a dye, it has to have certain properties. It's got to be, you know, water soluble, and it needs to be able to bind to a substrate. And then, you know, for a lot of the work we're doing, we're thinking about colorfastness, and lightfastness. And then, to be a pigment, you've got to actually capture those particles and have them be able to bind to a substrate. And we'll put different binders in or mordants to do that. And sometimes, even though it may produce a beautiful color, that reaction isn't there. So we can't really use it in that way. But it's still produced a great colorant. I mean, you can see that, like you said, but you know, Armillaria has mycelium and so forth. So it's got those colored pigments in there. It's just whether they can be captured and transformed into dyes and pigments. Alex 17:43 Have you ever made a tie dye shirt or anything? Like tie dye with? Yes, yeah. How did it turn out? Speaker 2 17:50 Yeah. Oh, it's great. And you know, it's super exciting, is I like to do that. And I do those in workshops that I lead, and you can then put your your shirt into the dye pot. And then we can use modifiers, we can shift the pH and they can put that in after bath so they can get a whole myriad of colors. Like you would maybe with the tie dye you think about and so you can just transform these colors and keep working with them, you know, fail. This just produces this huge range of colors from a soft yellow to a gold yellow to this intense orange to the shades of forests and all agreeing to these rusts browns and all through that kind of modification process. So it's exciting. Alex 18:44 What What in your opinion, what is the coolest color or pigment that you've gotten from a fungi Speaker 2 18:54 blue green. That is a pigment compound that isn't found anywhere else in nature. It's only in mushrooms. It's that triphenyl Queen own that we talked about earlier. And that is getting that blue from a mushroom is pretty pretty powerful. Um, the other coolest color I would say is purple. You know the Pala pork acid creates this purple that is it's just startling to think it comes from a mushroom. It's like Easter egg purple. It's so bright and brilliant. And it's really fun to be able to get that color and it's from really unique mushroom that grows in different areas throughout the world. But it's very, you know, like it doesn't grow here on the West Coast that's how palapa lists the Julian's and crows on the East Coast and then Scandinavia and so forth, but I've never never been able to see this and find it in real life. So it's super high on my bucket list, versus all these amazing blue greens come from hidden alums and socket ons and Fela dons, which I'm super lucky to have right here in my backyard. So Alex 20:17 what would you say? And potentially a loaded question, but what would you say is the easiest? And on the flip side, hardest color to or pigment to achieve from mushrooms? Speaker 2 20:29 Yeah, well, the easiest is beige, yellow. There's a lot of beige, yellow out there, for all of us that are really passionate about this will often pull it out and be like, you know, whatever. And we'll say, Oh, that's a dye dud. Well, it's technically not a dye dud, because it's a color in and it's produced the dye, it just might not be our favorite color. So sometimes you'll cast it off into that data, but it does work. And you know, on the flip side, the hardest is the blue. Man, when you are able to, you know, working with those mushrooms to get blue, it's it's definitely not a beginners, mushroom. It's more nuanced. And as soon as you kind of really learn the art form of, of working with those chemical compounds, hidden realms and socket ons, fellow dance, it's, it really is otherworldly to coax that blue out. And you know, what's even more exciting when you're working with these mushrooms is oftentimes the dye itself looks brown. And you think, Oh, I've ruined it, I didn't modify it quick enough or fast enough, or I put too much in or not enough in and I've ruined it. But just have patience. Keep your fiber in there. Because that brown black that you see in there, as soon as you bring it out, it doesn't bind to the fiber, those, that's what melanins were talking about earlier. And you'll wring it out. And voila, you will instantly see blue. And that's a very rewarding moment. So working towards blues are always always the hardest, but the most fun, Alex 22:27 have you? Well, first I want to ask this what what's the difference between you know, like, indigo dye versus a blue dye from mushrooms? Speaker 2 22:39 Yeah, so a lot of people think like, Oh, if I'm gonna get blue from mushrooms, I'm gonna get like the classic Indigo cobalt blue, you're not. And that's because the the pigment, there's multiple pigment compounds that are contributing to these blue greens. So they really are this layered blue that you just can't create from anything else in nature. They're, they're unique to the forest. I always think about it, you know, when you when you harvest these mushrooms, if you've got great observation skills and a keen eye, you can see that that blue in the mushroom, and it's often in the like, in the foot of the mushroom and up into the stipend. And when you cut it open, you can see it revealed throughout the mushrooms themselves are often a whitish grayish color, you know, they range some are dark, dark black grays, but um, that moment of that, thinking about the forest and like the layers that you see within the forest, not just visually with the colors, but the complexity of how that habitats working. And when that blue comes out, you can just see that because it is such a it's color, so full of like depth and richness and other tones that kind of layer onto it. But it's it's powerful, and it's very distinct and it is very different than the blue you get from Indigo. Alex 24:20 So kind of a random tangent, but have you heard of the underwater mantis shrimp? Speaker 2 24:28 Only I've read about it. But so I know a little bit about it. I've heard of it. Alex 24:35 But for people who don't know it's this is this shrimp or mantis shrimp and it can see it has 12 to 16 color receptors where humans have three. And so apparently it's like from what we know I think it's it's the the animal that can see the most amount of colors hypothetically. And I think each each receptor is like a primary color. And then I'm not sure that exactly how how we see color, but they can see, you know, hundreds of new colors that we can even not even perceive but even conceptualize, like, we don't even have a, it's not even like, Oh, it's a lighter shade of blue like it's a, it's like a blue or a green. Like it's a whole new color that we can't even conceptualize in our brain. And then also being able to see like, ultraviolet light, and other kinds of wavelengths of light that we can't even even, you know, perceive. So, I was thinking about that when, when thinking about color of like, well, the blue that we see, you know, it's just from the human eye. And it's, it's really, yeah, it's in the eyes of the beholder. Really? Speaker 2 25:58 Yep. It is, you know, I read about that in the book in a man's world by Ed Young, and was just constantly found myself stopping to just look around and be like, Man, I think I see such an array and diversity of color, and all the subtle, Miss and the uniqueness. And it's not about that trip. I'm like, I don't know how that thing could get through life, like I would be on sensory overload everywhere I look to see that many colors would be unbelievable. It would just be kaleidoscopically. Exciting. But yeah, and I think too, you know, sometimes it's like you said, the the colors and the eyes of the beholder. Some people can pass it off and think, oh, you know, that's not that interesting of a color. And then you talk to them about Well, where did that color come from? How was it created? You know, we're so conditioned to synthetic colorants. A lot of which, you know, to me, don't don't feel natural, they don't feel like they're from this place. And we've created those all in unique ways. And to other people. They're very, very attracted to them. And so, yeah, it's up to each of us in our own uniqueness of how we see color. Alex 27:21 And when you're in the woods, and you're looking for a new pigment, that, you know, no one has ever tested before, do you have? Do you have kind of like a game plan of how you go about that, or you just kind of you pick mushrooms that no one has ever worked with before? Throw a bunch of chemicals on them and see what happens? Speaker 2 27:43 Well, yeah, a little double I, you know, when I'm out for gene, I'm always really evaluating the mushroom, looking for signs of pigment, using my observation, my identification skills, I will sometimes take reagents out with me like ah, or ammonia, see what kind of reaction it yields. If it does yield a reaction, I will harvest the couple. And I'll bring them home to test in the dye pot. And my testing method is exactly what I have used at the mushroom color Atlas. And so on that website, I have the process section all lined out about what I do and how I go about it to test. And this is how I discovered a circuit on circuit on stereo Sardinian, was actually a die mushroom. It creates greens and purple blues. And you know, I don't even think the identification is correct. I ran it past my friend, Michael bueb, who's my neighbor. And he agreed that this is the closest we can get to an identification based on what we know. But the chance of it being correct is minimal. So like, here's an incredible mushroom that we could do work with, you know, do my cross copy and get into the DNA and identification and try to really figure out what that is. And that's true for a lot of a head nylons and fell Avans and socket ons. You know, a lot of socket ons are getting reclassified as had melons. It's just kind of a genus that people haven't spent a lot of time with. But in terms of being a source of colorants, that genus has a lot, a lot of species that produce some amazing blue green, so Alex 29:28 And you brought up the mushroom color Atlas. What what is it? Speaker 2 29:35 Yeah, well, the mushroom color Atlas is basically an opportunity. It's a website, so it's mushroom color atlas.com. But it's there for people to kind of explore the chromatic universe of funghi through the spectrum of colors that it creates. There's 825 colors up at the Atlas now that were derived from just 40 mushrooms. You know, I'm always doing research adding, you know, new dye mushrooms, I'm working with them as dyes on fiber as well as pigments, so transforming them into watercolor paint for paper. But yeah, it's basically you know, it's like a start of a journey for people in this kind of point of departure, introducing people to the fungi, kingdom and the colors that come from it. So yeah, it's an educational resource and reference for people. And, you know, my hope is, is that for people that maybe don't take to the sciences, and they come from arts and design and color and that sort of thing. By way of this, they start to learn maybe more about the fun the kingdom and our connection to it and start to learn a little bit more about the science and kind of the importance that all of this plays in our relationship to it so that we can get more people engaged and excited and doing work towards bettering the fungi kingdom. So that's what it is. Alex 31:14 Can Can people obtain different colors from say the cat versus the stem versus spores versus, you know, the gill surface versus like an egg or, you know, just different primordia? Or like, more? Baby mushroom versus mature mushroom? Like, do you get different colors and all these different parts and stages of mushrooms? Speaker 2 31:42 Yes, so you can. So there are certain mushrooms. If we look at the coronaries genus, and specifically the Durvasa, bees, those are mushrooms that create amazing reds and oranges and pinks and so forth. And if you work with certain species, if you work with the cap only, you're gonna get red. And if you work with the state only, you're gonna get orange. So right there, great example of being able to work with the state and the cap to get different colors. Some mushrooms, that is not an issue, you can work with the entire mushroom, say, Take hypo mitosis, like to form the lobster mushroom, you can work with that whole mushroom, but that's that outer area, that's, that's red, that's been pressed sighs that's where the color exists. So you would want to just peel that off, because the rest of the mushroom is just a wrestler, and it's white, and it's not going to contribute to the die. We don't know if it really dilutes the dye or not, but it's just not needed, then you can be lazy and throw it in and whatever, I think you'd be fine. Then like beliefs, if you look at the beliefs, you know, the beliefs, it's just most of the time, it's that I minion, that squirrel cat that spore bearing layer, where those pores are. And so you don't actually want to use the cap or the Stipe, it's not going to contribute anything. So you just use that poor layer. Now that's true for some species within volatile us, but not all, some do have colorant down for the SType and further up into the cat, but you can really study it, look at it and and start to see. So I feel like I answered a couple of your questions, but maybe not all of them. Sorry. Did I did I cover all her? Yeah, yeah, Alex 33:52 you got it? Yeah, you got it. Okay. What, um, what are people's reactions when you when you tell them that some of your things are died with mushrooms versus plants? Speaker 2 34:08 Well, you know, people are always fascinated and curious when you talk about working with mushrooms because it just conjures up you know, everyone's got some different thought or idea or focus on mushrooms. And when I tell them that they're kind of always like, Huh, that's That's strange. And then when they actually see the colors, they're, they're like completely shocked and in disbelief. So it's always fun to see that reaction and then you know, when you say oh, yeah, you know, I'm spending the day dine with mushrooms. There's always that joke what you're dying with mushrooms without thinking that I'm actually gonna die, but I'm not so. Alex 34:48 And I'm, I'm, I'm sure this is pretty niche, and there's not too many people in the world doing this. So it's it's kind of a a tight circle that You can share with other people doing it. You know, hey, I tried this on I got this color. Do you have is there like an online community of people kind of sharing this information of what new colors that they're finding? Or what new things like? Is there a few like, yeah, yeah, Facebook group or what do you use? Speaker 2 35:22 Yep. Yep, there's a huge community that Alyson Alyssa Allen started, mushroom and like, and dyers united, I think it's got, she has 30 or 40,000 people in this community on Facebook. Were always sharing and kind of talking about it. There's also every couple years, there is a meetup, the international funding and fiber symposium that's held in different countries, Alyssa just hosted this one in the United States in 2022, last October and brought about 170 people together. And then there's lots of people active on Instagram, and then through the myco illogical societies and communities, you know, throughout the different countries. So it's, it's really exciting to see more and more people interested and taking this seriously. You know, it's an opportunity for, to think about how we get our color, the regenerative nature of it, the sustainability, you know, this idea of, can we build these colorant factories and cultivate this because that's really where the focus should be, rather than just the wild foraging because you shouldn't be foraging for mushrooms at all, let alone mushrooms for pigment, if you aren't aware of, you know, the mushrooms that are on the red, endangered list and those sorts of things. So you really want to be thoughtful a lot of these die mushrooms have these micro Raizel relationships. So you want to make sure you're, you know, practicing ethical foraging techniques and not taking every single one. I know one of the things you asked me was different stages of life, you know, that's what die mushrooms, you tend to want them a little further a little more mature in their lifespan because they've developed more pigment. So you know, when you're foraging just like you would for an edible, you want to leave the smaller one behind. They haven't actually grown enough pigment to necessarily make it worth your, your effort. And you want them to go through the sport dispersal process. So yeah. Alex 37:51 And for people who have no idea this, they're brand new to this topic, can you kind of bring us through a How It's Made episode of, you know, you pick a mushroom in the woods, you bring it home? What's the process of making a die or a pigment? And what can you die with it? Speaker 2 38:11 Yeah, so, you know, making a mushroom die, it's as simple as sipping a cup of tea, you know, you would take your mushroom, you would chop or grind it up, you can use them dried, fresh or frozen, you can put them in a pot, you know, with just enough water that whatever you're going to die is going to be submerged and you slowly bring them up to temperature, and you cook them for about an hour. And then you can strain them out. And then you can drop your materials into that dye pot. You can use any kind of natural fibers. Mushrooms tend to work best with natural fibers, they do perform with synthetic fibers, they they dye nylon really well. So you can you know, dye anything, you're going to put that in the pot, and you're going to let it you know simmer and cook for about an hour. And then you'd remove the fibers, let them cool and read some. Now, there are some various nuances to that. But that's the basic gist of it, just kind of how you make a cup of tea. Some of the things that if you really want to get into it, you need to make sure that you are preparing the material that you're going to die properly. For natural dyes, we often will mordant our fiber and what that means that's a Latin term it means to bind or to bite, and you would pretreat your fiber with like an aluminum potassium sulfate or something like that a mineral that will allow that dye to bind together to the fiber. Now the cool thing is there are some mushrooms that don't require or more. So again, are dyers polypore, the best beginner mushroom ever fail a Schwitzer nightsky. To get that golden yellow, you don't need a more. So you can, depending on the mushroom you find, you don't need to mordant it. Other things as you get into it, and the nuances would be modifications, some mushrooms, like beliefs, they love an acidic environment. So you'd put a little vinegar in there to help, you know, coax out the color and they can a brighter, more yellow orange. Other mushrooms like the hidden melons that get the blue green, those like an alkaline environment. So you can add some soda ash to that. And then you kind of as you get further and further and more nuanced, you're going to look at kind of controlling the temperature and stuff. But if you just want to play, it's as simple as you know, sipping a cup of tea, just chop those mushrooms up, put some water on him, heat him up, strain them out and drop your fiber and get some color. Alex 41:06 Have you ever tried dyeing mushroom leather or any other myco materials? Is it possible? Speaker 2 41:13 I have. But I'm under NDA, so. Okay. But yes. Alex 41:21 Hypothetically, yeah. And most of the protocols and recipes are for natural fibers only. This best, especially and specifically for wool yarn. What other fabrics Can you can you dye? And are there any ones on your bucket list that you've been trying and haven't cracked the code yet, but really want to? Speaker 2 41:50 Yeah, you know, the same processes will work on on synthetic fibers, the same process will work for nylon. It'll work for silks, it'll work for cellulose, it'll work for hemp, it'll work for bamboo, all those things. The fiber itself is going to kind of dictate what color it is because the way that fiber has been made, what it's been made of. Its density, its weave its weight, et cetera, all in form, like how much of that dye it can soak up in absorb versus how much it can't. So yeah, there is like this kind of misnomer about cellulose fibers that oh, you know, mushroom dyes don't work on that. And that's not necessarily true. Some of the mushroom dyes perform beautifully on cellulose fibers. The and those are the mushrooms that like alkaline environments. Because cellulose likes alkaline it performs best in an alkaline environment. So if you were to put cellulose in with some mushrooms that like acidic environments, like believes they're not going to perform as well on cellulose, meaning they're not going to be as bright and bold, as they would be, say on wool or silk. The general rule of thumb though is is that all natural dyes, whether it's plants, or mushrooms, will be a little bolder, a little more vibrant on what we call protein fibers. And protein fibers are wool or silk. So for some people, their preference is only to work with those fibers. And that's the colors they like and that's fabulous. And wonderful. And then there's some people who really love just working with it on cellulose and hemp and they like the color palettes they get from there. So again, kind of like how we all see color, we all have a different appreciation of what our preferences so it's really up to you and what you like. But yeah, I wanted for a long time hemp was high on my list, and I finally kind of figured out how to work with hemp and got some weaves and that was really exciting and working with some designers that were wanting to work with him in their work their fashion designers. So that was a really great feeling to try to. Okay, finally figured out what hemp likes and how it likes to respond to mushrooms. So that was cool. But yeah, I haven't I haven't thought of any other fibers I'm sure something will come up. Alex 44:34 So what are your thoughts about scaling up mushroom dyes to replace synthetic dyes? You know, I'm sure synthetic dyes are mass produced in these giant factories and what we're seeing now with, you know, fungal based proteins and and and even other other things with fungi is As mass producing them in bio reactors and isolating certain compounds. So if we know, the compounds that these mushrooms are producing to make these pigments, hypothetically, can we mass produce them in giant bio reactors and then isolate the pigments then use them to potentially create a more sustainable alternative to synthetics? Speaker 2 45:26 Yes, I mean, all of that is possible. And I think we're, we're right on the edge of that happening. I don't know if they will ever completely replace synthetics, my hope is they do and I'm proven wrong. But you know, so much work is being done, especially in other countries with the fungal micro organisms and growing these colorant factories. A lot of people are doing that at scale for the food industry and are transitioning to textiles. And, yeah, it's all possible. And it's, you know, people are really now thinking about that and taking it seriously as we look at kind of what we have created, not only with the synthetic dyes, but the, the microplastics from the fibers and how can we create that more sustainable regenerative approach, and, you know, I have dreams of these coloring factories sprouting up all over. You know, and it's also the possibility and kind of becoming more accepting of using solvents, as a way. Because like you said, if we can isolate these color compounds, you know, we can get multiple colors out of a mushroom. So if we can go and see like, okay, let's just isolate this one, get all the yellow, you can reuse that exact same thing, isolate it, get all the orange. And if we can possibly do some things, maybe with some different solvents that can help with that water usage of water waste. Because that is an issue in working with natural dyes, more so than synthetics, that's a problem. So it's kind of looking at this big, overarching challenge and dissecting that down to be able to say, how can we start to make inroads in all of these areas and, you know, funding, it's the future. And it's, I really believe it's the future of color. So many people are, are studying this now, I was just talking with a woman out of Venice, Italy, who's a PhD and looking at funghi and fashion. And she's in her second year of her PhD talking with people in Copenhagen, you know, that are doing this work at a scientific level of bringing, you know, the color red, that color, we all want to covet and bringing that color to the textile industry, you know, because the red colorants the anthraquinones, that are some of the most light fast and stable colors. And you know, in the court, denarius, termasuk bees, they have at least three of those pigment compounds and can be isolated for different shades of red, pink. So it's, it's an exciting time. I think I've said exciting 5 million times in this, but I just it's like, we're right there. And it's just amazing. Alex 48:43 If you had unlimited resources and unlimited team, and unlimited time, what what experiments or research would you like to see done in this field? Speaker 2 48:56 Oh, well, oh, my, my list is endless. I mean, I can't even keep up with the things that I want to do to, you know, put up at the mushroom color Atlas to see how they respond and behave. But I really do think it is, you know, that there's so much to discover and learn. And the funding really, is very hard to come by. And if we could find a way to get that funding in to get mycologists and chemists to be able to like we were saying study those really specific chemical compounds, being able to grow them to isolate them, and to work with them more efficiently and purposefully. That really, really could transform the textile industry and it's going through a revolution now as we look at you know, slow fashion and you know what's happening with the fast fashion revolution that's taking place and trying to move back from that if we could really put a lot of effort into doing that experimentation that cultivate and grow, you know, building the production facilities to do it. It that would be my dream, you know, and that was Miriam's dream, you know, she talked about back in the 70s. Like, we can start to cultivate some of these, you know, some of these are separate fights and white rots, and they're gonna grow on dead logs, and, you know, we can start to cultivate it. I know some people who are cultivating different mushrooms for di purposes down in Mexico. So it's all it's all possible. And I think it's just a matter of time. There's obviously other priorities right now. Just, you know, identifying new species, how amazing is that, like, the time and effort that it's taking just to develop that, and then we're more looking at foods and the gizmos. So I think colors gonna be right up there in terms of a priority, you know, in the next decade, so. Alex 51:04 And where can people follow your work and tune into all the fun, colorful stuff you're up to? Speaker 2 51:11 Yeah, well, I posted on mushroom color atlas.com, and then also on Instagram at mushroom color Atlas. So that is where I've got that work. And then I'm also you know, an educator, I taught in higher education, my backgrounds in art and design. So I was teaching graduate students are getting the Masters of Fine Arts. And so I will go around and teach mycology and color workshops hosted somewhere I am do some virtually. So you can learn about it on on the site, and on my Instagram, so forth. Alex 51:49 Awesome, cool. Well, thank you for coming on the show. And I hope everyone who's tuning in and chiming in from around the world had this influenced them to have a more colorful day and see colors around them and in a more intricate, unique way. And if you learn something new on the show today, please share it with a family member of friends, posted on your social whatever, it helps create a more unified collective consciousness where we are more fungal based and appreciate the fungal Kingdom a little bit more. And if you want to support the show, if you're a if you're a first time listener or longtime listener, you we don't have a Patreon or anything but you can go to our website at mushroom revival.com We have a whole line of functional mushroom products from tinctures to capsules to powders and gummies, all certified organic or super high quality backed by third party lab results. And we also have a bunch of blog posts and free ebooks on there. I just wrote a book and it was published and that's on there as well The Little Book of mushrooms that you can order. If you don't want to spend any money, we're actually doing a giveaway where you can win some free mushroom goodies and this is only for listeners of the podcast. So your VIP, the link is in the bio or this the description of this podcast so you can enter and all that being said, I hope everyone has a fantastic day and much love. May the spores be with you Transcribed by https://otter.ai
