Transforming Fungal Pathogens into Symbionts with Kei Hiruma

Alisa Nappa December 5, 2023

By influencing a gene in Colletotrichum tofieldiae researchers like Kei Hiruma are able to turn the root mold from a damaging parasite into something that actually supports plant development. This could save hundreds and millions in food waste and lower our need for chemical fertilizers and fungicides. The research by Kei Hiruma is helping solve world hunger and is creating a healthier more sustainable planet.

TRANSCRIPT

Alex 0:11 Welcome, welcome, you are listening to the mushroom revival podcast. I'm your host, Alex Dora. And we are absolutely obsessed with the wonderful, wacky world of mushrooms and fungi. We bring on guests and experts all around the world to geek out with us and go down this mysterious rabbit hole to figure out what the heck fungi are up to all around the world with all different researchers trying to figure it out with us. So today we have a wonderful guests coming in from Tokyo is is in the morning. And we are going to geek out about influencing genes of parasitic fungi to turn them into beneficial fungi and plants. So how are you doing today? Speaker 1 0:54 Okay, hello, everyone. Nice to meet you. Yeah, I'm McKay Shima. From Tokyo as a kindly introduced, and we are currently doing mainly plant microbe molecule introduction and changing environmental condition. So the you know, the recently as a similar lot to we are running from gut microbiome in our gut, right, France Also, thanks to the development of the sequencing technology, we know that plant in nature interact with various kinds of microorganism and the nature and some of them really promote plant growth Bennett working as a conniption farmers, they're under specific stress conditions. In contrast, some of them are really as you know, were called really seem severe these symptoms on transport stands that cause really, that huge damage on our food production, walking, behaving as a pathogenic fungi and the plant the area, they are hugely certain by the fungal, micro compared to our human beings. So that's why studying fungi very often to prevent disease outbreak or to make best use of beneficial microbes. So what we are currently doing but is there these two contrast, microorganisms are considered to be at quite different. That's why we are studying processing found by nature microbe in different periods. Sometimes we are discussing each other, of course, but we found in this time, that single even farms that the Congress today can challenge it between such a beneficial and pathogenic mode by just changing the one pathology, changing activities financing. That's why we believe in your future than moderating such kind of gene expression, we can keep potentially punished fungus as a benefit, and we can suppress the potential pathogenic behavior. All fungi muy bien, Dr. Jones. So that's what we're currently doing. That is my brief introduction. Alex 3:06 And I have a million questions for you because this is super fascinating. But I'm just curious about your background and how you got into mushrooms and fungi in the first place. Speaker 1 3:18 Thank you very much for asking. So that was really when I was a university student I'm not particularly interested was not interested in fungi or mushroom when I was a kid. Okay, that's pretty retributive I have to say right now. But whenever I was doing the experiments in the university course, I was really impressed by how fungi so for example, grow on the just nutrient plate Yeah, the way they grow with the various car and they are growing and they are forming spoil or something. We are only Carpo and that's amazing. fascinating to study fungi. Yeah, that's why we I choose laboratory. I can I can study FrontFundr introduction when I was undergraduate so that is maybe the first reason why I get into mass shooter more fungi. Alex 4:12 Cool. Yeah. And obviously Japan is one of the world leaders in the mushroom space and setting mycology not only has just a rich history with with mushrooms as a whole, but a ton of research and development innovations coming from Japan in the in the mushroom space. Obviously, it's all relative. But I do I do hear in general, it's hard to get funding as a researcher, but as someone studying mycology, what's your experience, especially in Japan getting funding? You know how it hasn't been easy? It's hard Speaker 1 4:52 to see AC Yeah, that's a good question on the might depends on the EBO in the fungal world is very diverse there. They have different study today, but it depends on some topics we choose it that is, depending on what the trend or something. So that's why in our condition there, I was studying I am studying plant fungal production. Of course not to be easy, but fortunately we have so pallida develop chances to get the funding. This is a part of the because one of the current popular research topic in Japan is to make some kind of develop the beneficial microbes that promote plant growth so that's coming instead of a chemical fertilizer because in any way we need to develop technology to reduce use of chemical fertilizer, they are constantly refined and distillation while the strange and that's why these type of topics are relatively very popular, they gradually appear to gradually listen to the they are getting popular in Japan. That's why relatively Yeah, so he so that's why we will try to make a good progress there too. Alex 6:00 Yeah, yeah. No, that makes sense. I mean, most universities if they're covering fungi, it's it's only you know, maybe a day where they're talking about pathogenic fungi to plants. And so yeah, plants people love plants and you know, if I could see how there's a lot of interest and funding in that particularly. So, how can these fungi become helpful and and in the end reduced food food waste? Yeah, Speaker 1 6:33 in my view from our study, at least the majority of soap are harmful fungi we call the non pathogenic on most of them they are lifestyle together with a plant okay that is but sometimes under specific environmental condition the first condition they can be becoming as a harmful fungi. So, that is we need to know the mechanism behind how they cause pathogenicity even though they normally behave as adjuster endophytic micro organism without causing these symptoms, that is very important thing I view this as question four from now on, under changing environmental conditions. And in our case study, we noticed that they are literally fugene a fungal or plan to impose Okay, is responsible for to turn originally non pathogenic microorganism into pathogenic status, okay, that's why if we No, develop the system to depress the such kind of very limited number of the virulence factor, might end up even endophytic microorganism having their genome, we can suppress only partially Nick behavior, not by microbe itself, okay, yeah, we don't have to kill the microbe itself, right, by fertilize our unknown pesticide or something, then if we can develop such some system, then we can keep the diversity for the micro organism. And that's the thing to reduce also, food waste, that is a serious issue, you know, about Alex 8:07 this is really revolutionary. You know, I feel like the approach by most humans is, both in a medical system, and also, you know, for fighting pathogens is to kill it. It's mad, we got to, we got to kill it, you know, which is, sometimes it works, but I don't, you know, this just seems like a much better method of, hey, can we turn that pathogen into something that's beneficiary by just changing the genes? So, how, how does one influence these genes? And, and the second part answer that question is, say a plant is infected with this specific fungi? I can't pronounce it. It starts with a C. Speaker 1 9:02 or C. Toffee he didn't come for me. Yeah, Alex 9:07 that one? Yeah. So so say that's infecting a plant in the wild, or on a farm or something? And it has it activates the ABA, B O T, secondary metabolite gene cluster, which inhibits the plant growth. How does one influence that specific gene cluster to then turn into a beneficiary like Can Can someone are you spraying something on the plants? Like can you do it in the wild? Or do you have to bring it back into the lab? How does one influence it? Speaker 1 9:49 So yeah, that's why controlling gene Crosta to be very critical for trans girls, right. In some cases, they of course, as you You nicely introduced activations, ABA, motorized their gene cluster is inhibit the plant growth, especially on the water sufficient condition. But for example, as you may know, the function the plant hormone abscisic acid that is, we call just ABA. Aba is also useful to sustain plant growth and the road condition for example, right, actually are upon us activating ABA both is somehow behaving as a beneficial, wholesome, and the root condition. So that's why if we can correctly regulate a be able to cluster depending on the environment to we are trying to use the micro micro was very natural for better plant products. It's very relatively easy what we believe so, how is their various way, what we are currently thinking with, of course, not least thanks to the development of a CRISPR cast nine gene editing technology, we can modify transcription factor activity in cross validation, then we can modulate expression profiling, then we can develop the beta fungi that promote plant growth by science cluster. And also we are also planning to make best to use some kind of a partner micro, they are together with the microbes we are using as a microbe as a kind of cocktail. Yeah, to inoculate them into the plant. In that case, some of the microbe we don't know the mechanism yet. Yeah, we need to currently runnings mechanism behind but some microbe nice to suppress the abs to activity. colonize plants. That's why not there are similar way we can control once we know the mechanism behind Yeah. So that's why from a next step, we are currently trying to find out a way to modulate across the individual way. Yeah, right. Alex 12:03 Right. So ideally, you'll inoculate new plants with this, this CRISPR genetically modified fungus. Yep. So so it won't later develop the the, quote unquote bad strain to inhibit the plant growth. And instead, it's benefiting the growth with this with this good strain. And then if it already has it, then then there's a what a beneficial microbe that you can spray on to switch the genes later in the growth. That's cool. That's awesome. Unknown Speaker 12:37 Yeah, thank you. Alex 12:40 i This is huge, I mean, huge for so many, so many different things. Do you hypothesize that you can do a similar action with with other fungal pathogens in plants? It's it seems like Okay, great. Speaker 1 12:58 So far, because we are conducting comparative genomic analysis using various type of plant associated fungal pathogen. And you know, that cluster is really distributed to various distributed various type of the plant associated fungi possibility or horizontal gene transfer mechanism. So, that's why this suggests that the crust is very important for the fungal pathogenesis in some cases. That's why we believe we can develop the system or what do we learn from this fungus is we can apply it to other parts of the suppression. So that's why this is really general mechanism work, we can actually find it out this time. That's what we think Yeah. Alex 13:47 Also in the paper, it talks about how changing the environment change the expression. Have you tested this much on what environmental changes? Yeah. Speaker 1 14:01 Yeah, that is also a very important point. So first, we define the microbial quality control failure is one strain as a partial signal causing the same plant growth inhibition under specific conditions. But later on, we find it that there are just a few temperature increase that is during the daytime so that's why no during noon time video, this panelist anymore did not express the ABA bot cluster. And that lead to the pan this fungus to beneficial microalgae and promoting plant growth, especially on the phosphate available phosphorus limiting condition. That's why just few few temperature increases can be happening every day. They are from the the morning to the unknown. So that's why even that's changes now to change the expression profile that is passed but we found a surprising finding. I have to sit here Alex 15:00 You know, I'm I have a background in commercial mushroom cultivation, indoor cultivation. And one of our one of the things that kind of haunts mushroom farmers is TRICARE Derma. And it in it, and that's just one of the, you know, various molds that we have to deal with, but probably the most, the biggest one, and, you know, it's grayed out, and it's great for plants. I mean, you know, it's natural in the soil is, it's a great fungus until you're trying to grow mushrooms in a sterile lab, right? And I'm just curious if the same thing is going on where, you know, people always ask me, you know, why can't you just throw? Why can't you just grow mushrooms in the in the dirty wild, right? You know, why? Why do you have to make it so sterile? And, you know, I'm curious if the same thing is going on where Trikha Derma, there's just a different strain. That is it has a gene cluster that's expressing in a different way in a sterile lab. And it's just, if there's a way that we can influence trinket Derma to grow mushrooms, to where it's actually beneficial for the mushroom that were growing. I don't know, just spitballing here. I'm not. That's not my forte. But But yeah, it makes you wonder as well, the the implications, do you do you know, what the main plant fungal pathogens in the world are right now and kind of the one the crops that they target, but also what they estimated amount of tons of food waste or amount of like estimated dollar amount, or money amount that's lost per year because of them? Speaker 1 16:48 Yeah, there are lots of fungal passwords into this. It depends on the region or something like that. But our fungus Colletotrichum. fungi also really cause various type of symptom various different to crops, especially in Asia, Japan, or East Asia country, this past thing, he really caused a severe disease, there's damage to the various type of crop or trees. That's why this is also very important. But the other one can be related to rust and fungi. That is very sometimes it's caused a very serious problem to the wheat production, Australia or some other lesion that is very, also very dangerous Africa. That's why I noticed the Mallanna politics, sometimes very harmful for rice production was something so once they made the barely there, they allowed there was a final pass within two days. Of course, some of them are of course the because we've been consumed that particular limited number of suits very hardly. That's why different fungal pathogen caused these on such commercially very important crops. They are of course, total amount of rows $2.20 increase. I don't know exactly how much crop two roses, they are maybe, depending on the literature, at least 10 to 20% to our last buys a funnel passes, and that is pretty sure some of the literature even says 30% or something, but maybe 10 to 20 Lafley. Also Alex 18:21 lie. Yeah. And then considering where we have so much world hunger, and and food waste is such a problem in our world, both both in production, but then post production as well. You know, that 10 to 30% Saved food waste is that's massive for the world. And, you know, and then also, if we're not relying on using a bunch of chemical fungicides and you know, really gnarly chemicals that are being put in our food. That's great, you know, and more or less toxic waste in our environment, less toxic waste in our own bodies. So I think this has huge implications, and you're doing really good work. So this is awesome. Yeah, yeah. What, what questions should I ask this? There's, I'm so curious about this. But um, let's see. So, I'm curious, what is the what's the benefit? What's the evolutionary benefit of one strain of this fungus? inhibiting the plant growth, right, expressing this gene cluster and inhibiting the the plant growth and then this other strain, not choosing, they still have that gene cluster, they're just choosing not to express it, and then they have a mutualistic benefit with the plant growth. What's the benefit for the fungus in both scenarios? Speaker 1 19:54 Okay, that's very important question and really critical point for our study. Okay, so currently we are studying the first reason for behind. But what we currently think that there, we know that the activations at this cluster is very helpful to increase Shiva accumulate amount in France. So that's why this cluster can increase the sugar in plants. So that is maybe in your future good for us. If we can make best use of this cluster cassava, for example, they are great for some other crops, right anyway. So that's why that is very important for fungal growth, right? Because the shoe is very critical for Pangan to grow. That's why lung pathogenic strain, we know that their demand for sugar is very flat compared to the Punisher Michroma. Instead, finisher microorganism can grow the hyphae, even Lea limited number was sugar. So that's why we don't know why such kind of different sugar demand the difference can happen between the beneficial and pathogenic microorganism, but at least they are food. Sugar is the kind of who the poor fungi, that's very critical. So depending on their preference, there's a choose a different strategy to acquire new tutorials from them, they are cooperating their growth. Yeah, that's why Yeah, nutrient sensing and nutrients signaling fungi, it's very can be critical to determine whether they are possibly more beneficial microbes, or particular foster parents that we utilize to address FAFSA by post type can be coexist even say same species. genome is almost similar. Yeah. But nevertheless, if they choose a different derived strategy, so that can be very interesting to modulate the behavior. Alex 21:49 Just I think I, I followed this part that you said that the the strain that inhibited the growth, increase the sugar content, was that right? Yeah, yeah. Yes. Yes. That's, that's wild. And it is that is interesting that you said that we could potentially use that for our benefit, you know, sugary crates, or something like that. Yeah, that interesting, you know, it's, um, we're definitely at the age of, of designer biology, which is, for better or for worse, but I think you have the tools to manipulate nature in ways that could be good or bad. And, you know, it is a tremendous power that we have for human beings. And I hope we put it to good use. Speaker 1 22:41 That's why we are running detailed mechanism there behind the controlling front fungi introduction. So that's why but we believe we can do this way. Yeah, we know that the basic mechanism behind so that's what I believe at least, Alex 22:57 what would you say is the hardest part of this research? Yeah, Speaker 1 23:01 that is a very take some time to publish this work after my when I found past pounds and my fenomeno that were the 2017. So that's why now is 2000 to 2023. Right? So that's why we're almost 60 years past the sensor. We have published a paper after we found the phenomenon. Part of the reason for this is because phenotype, trans phenotype when we inoculated the pathogenic shittier after not stable because we experiments sometimes this fungus inhibited plant cross perish really under some specific condition. But sometimes the same city stray fungal strain, the leader tend to promote plant growth, right. And what do we call the same conditions? That's why we don't know that we didn't know the reason behind why sometimes the spineless behave as a positive or sometimes in Brazza behavior, the beneficial guy, but as I explained before, data after a few years later, we noticed that a few temperature increase can be shift their disappointments from passwords into the Mutual's Yeah, yeah, that's what after because the channel that we're using, right, they, we said the same temperature in every chamber, but each chamber depending on the type or type of chamber or something, even we set the same temperature as the kind of setting but the inside temperature can be defined. So that's where some of the old chamber actually we set the 22 degrees, but actually we mentioned there 26 degrees and something new now that's faster, even very simple one, we should have noticed much more time point. But we didn't notice. After several Tria, we finally find it out then we understand that every nature which is far less at this stage, that's why we can publish but he took the several years to understand On this seemingly unstable infection strategy of the spineless house. So that's why sometimes the unexpected, but maybe that's the hardest part of this research to understand about the fungi is very, most important. But the difficult point that I have, Alex 25:17 yeah, it's really interesting. I never really thought much about temperature. I used to grow this, this mushroom, cordyceps militaris. And, you know, every time we went over 70 degrees Fahrenheit, I'm not sure how much that isn't in Celsius. But we had another kind of like, myco parasite or mold that would grow. And so, you know, for that, particularly, we had to be very mindful of the temperature. But, you know, I just brought on two researchers. I'm not sure if you're familiar with them, but Dr. Arturo Kasota. Bell and Dr. Rodimus Cordero. And they they're researching temperature with fungi, and specifically for human fungal pathogens. Oh, and it's interesting that you say, you know, that a higher temperature turns this fungus into benefit, beneficial, because in their research, they're afraid of global you know, global warming, because these fungal pathogens that are high body temperature can fight off as humans and mammals. These These fungi are getting more and more highly adapted to higher temperatures. Yeah, and so the threat of of high temperature resistant, pathogenic fungi for humans is getting a lot higher. So it's, it's crazy, you know, temperature can just make such a big difference. Exactly. Yeah, I just never. I'm increasingly becoming more aware of it. So thank you for for expanding my my awareness around it that it's it's just a super interesting topic that I don't think many researchers know about. What, what keeps you up at night? Unknown Speaker 27:14 So what is Alex 27:15 it? Is there anything that prevents you from falling asleep at night? If you're overthinking about a certain thing? A problem with your research something like that? Speaker 1 27:26 Yeah. Fortunately, I'm very happy to think about research topics, even though this does not matter where it's time they are. But oh, that's why so far, for this is a lot of the small issue, how to overcome fears. My issue can be happened every day. But so far, I am relatively positive. Maybe in my mind, after a while on sleep. Everything can be Yeah, I can think more positive. So that's very good for my research. So that's why every time so I never have experiments and because of the pressure was I was saying, I didn't sleep. That kind of thing never happened to me. So every time we've been there, I need to study at Harvard bull's eye examination. Yeah, sleepiness is always me. Me too. I didn't band score. Alex 28:28 You're one of the rare ones. So yeah, that's that's incredible. What uh, what? What helps keep your positive mindset, you know, what's been what's been the most rewarding aspect of doing this research? Speaker 1 28:43 You mean rewarding it crazy. Yeah, fungi, farms. And as I mentioned, the reason why I was fascinated by the Punjab there are mushroom, yeah, to be very diverse. And even though we, they are beautiness. We don't know, any details here. It might be how they are living in nature, and of course, how they are associated with the host plant. That is the mystery in mind. Of course, some of the Glades study, the being part of that sort of mechanism or introduction behind that still majority of them with maybe secret Yeah, especially fungal species, so far, not too deep, organized by us. Only a few of them can be studied very deeply. But the majority of them may disappear. We still Yes, right. In their words. So that's why they do one step by step will be very fascinating, Amelia sometimes, yeah. Most of the time. We of course, put us on specific hypothesis right? About Yeah, we need to make a hypothesis right for our research progress, but majority of my hypothesis was this was wrong after the after looking at introduction because that's kind of an expected binding will be very interesting for me. That's part of the reason why I was studying such kind of fungal plant interaction. Yeah, that is yeah, my most stroke reason Alex 30:19 if you had unlimited funding, unlimited, the biggest team of experts that you could possibly get time resources, unlimited equipment, you name it, what what would you do and why? Speaker 1 30:34 Yeah, that is also the most difficult question. Always there we are thinking Lea diversity always about the money. Yeah, she's not to think too much about it of course, we need to see. But yeah, one of the most difficulty in our plant microbe attraction, we especially molecule mechanism, there will be a majority of the time studying in the laboratory condition right. So that can be very useful to find out some specific mechanism important mechanism behind because we need to control the situation. But I tried to develop someone with beneficial microphones that can be really useful for agricultural setting in the future. And if we can develop such kind of beneficial microorganism as a kind of a small technology, then we can learn there are a lot of things from the natural setting, not that never happened in the laboratory condition, then we can learn what to happen in the nature, then we can bring up back such kind of phenomena interlaboratory again, and make the big mechanism will drag to the beans the mechanism behind for such kind of both period on the laboratory, both setting I have to live to developing our laboratory. But currently, of course, due to the limited number of the people or budget that we need to relatively more focus on the laboratory experiments. That's why if we have more a limited number, are you attracted to the nearly larger scale field as the much more time and we would like to learn much more about from nature? So that is what currently I wish to try to do one step by step. That's the direction but if we have a minute people, yeah, we can do much more fast that way. Yeah. Alex 32:32 Well, I hope you get it because I think this is world changing research. And I think it deserves a ton of funding and team members behind it. It we have listeners all around the world and and some of them are just wanting to go into school for mycology or to pursue something related to your research. But so what what advice would you give aspiring mycologists that want to follow in similar footsteps of what you're doing? Speaker 1 33:08 Yeah, we try to stress that they are studying to study mycology, in my view, we don't have a specific to really cutting edge technology, of course, sometimes needed to understand the mechanism. But from the beginning, we need to really observe how fungal grow or because but sometimes it's difficult because we can't directly see, especially the mushroom, we can detect presence, right. That's why That's why people write the mushroom, that's what I feel. But sometimes fungi or cannot see by direct ties, but we have several ways to detect the presence of the microbe and that's why just fast to just for curiosity that we can observe how fungi grow, how we interact with the plant, that kind of basic very important and how as a result of the introduction, plant grows in the influence in a positive way or negative way, if we can really nicely observe such kind of things not difficulty my but take some time and take some kind of really lovely terms and important to the fungi or something. So we have such kind of things here. knowledge we can learn later, even after we entered university because when I was a high school, the unfortunately I mentioned in the biology, but we need to study about the micro micro organ too much and because because of the size of the high school educational system, but nevertheless they are if we interesting, we can learn much more about their interactions. So that's why they are curious is the most important. So learning detailed knowledge we can learn later, but just observation. Yeah, when you go to the forum stored somewhere by arrows, please look at places or the fungi or myco, at least the diversity that's passed behind underground area will get even when we cannot see directly, I'd say, really establish a nice fungal network or something we don't know what they're really doing by using the network. So that's why take just a curiosity will be probably the most important there. And if we don't have the curiosity, you can find something new. That's never nobody find it out before. So that is appealing point over the grandfather's introduction. We can try in the lecture. So bear if he goes. Alex 35:45 That that's a very zen viewpoint. And I love it, you know, just to take time and observe with a childlike mind. Yeah, I love it. That's great. Unknown Speaker 35:58 Thank you very much. Alex 36:01 And so apart from this specific research, what other mycology research have you been working on? Or have you worked on? That you're, they're proud to share? Speaker 1 36:16 Sorry, sorry. To repeat again. So with that, I want to experiment so to what Alex 36:25 what what other research or are you have you researched or are currently researching Speaker 1 36:35 with other researchers? You me? Yeah. Okay, I see. I see. Yeah, majority of work with we addressed in the past, we are isolating new founders from literacy, brands growing and nature that is a part of our work as part of the study we published recently. That's why we need to much more deeply relationship now with ecologist for example, there because they call this they know about course, plant and fungal and how they are interacting. That's why we are people collaboration with such kind of equality. So that's why we need to be relaxed from ecologist. That's the first thing. And we are also using a lot of the gentleman information or other things that sometimes very good it is necessary to collaborate with some binding particle specialist to analysis, deep into some genomic information. That's dew point, we are currently the majority of the collaborator we work and also sometimes we need to measure how finalists for example, transfer nutrient from, for example, soil to the host plant. In that case, yeah, we need to use the radioisotope experiments right for example, a piece that is three or 414 co2 carbon in that case, we need to collaborate with such grindable radioisotope expand so that's why Yeah, I love to more collaborate with people researcher to really know about the fungus Yeah, right. So for example, the specialist to to determine the species name or by making a theologian technically they are really know about the basic nature of the fungi how they can grow houses Polly rate or how they do the something that's is what most of us have you mentioned we don't know because we are the majority of the time focusing on party only particular interaction to address the mechanism behind so that's why these really basic Yeah, yeah, so far, clearly old. This is really long history right? fungal species filamentous they are but they know really about them. So important invention for our future restarts. So that's why we are currently working with the those people that we would like the more the increased such kind of collaborate to work together in such kind of funds and viruses. That's what we are currently seeking. Alex 39:10 Awesome. And where can people follow your work? I'm guessing you're on ResearchGate. Are you on Twitter? Do you have a website? Speaker 1 39:21 No, normally Twitter will be the easiest way at least if we have up to date some of the search something we are finding or something we are updating with through the Twitter so that can be most easiest way for people especially from outside to Japan. That's what currently Of course as a research period, or there are several English based our publication that cause is available. So that's why just Googling my name, which you can find are several of updated information. So hello include This sounds can be really cool. Alex 40:03 Awesome. Well, thank you so much for coming on. I really appreciate it. I think your work is super fascinating. And it's the first I've ever heard of something like Git. And I think it can be revolutionary not only for these specific plans, but I think for many different applications in many different industries. So thanks for doing it. And thank you everyone for tuning in and trimming it for another episode of the mushroom revival podcast. If you liked this episode, or any of our episodes, please leave a review it goes a long way and just spread the word if you learn something about this episode, or just mushrooms in general, just keep keep the awareness going. And keep spreading the mycelial network and get out in the woods and just observe fungi and mushrooms and plants and just nature in general with a childlike mind and just just observe. I think we can learn a lot if we turn our brain off and just and just be be with nature. And we don't have a Patreon or any way that you could directly support the show. But we do have a brand mushroom revival, where you can find some amazing organic functional mushroom products from tinctures, capsules, powders gummies. They're super high quality really delicious, either for you or friend family. We have a special coupon code just for podcast listeners. And that code is pod treat. And that is for a surprise discount. We change it all the time. So you got to test it out to see what you you win. And for people not wanting to spend any money, we have a giveaway going on. We pick a winner once a month so you can win one of our products. And that link is in our bio as well. And then we also have my newest book, The Little Book of mushrooms out on our website. It's also in you know various bookstores including Urban Outfitters across the country. So check it out. And just really appreciate all of our listeners. Thank you for being curious about mushrooms and fungi. As always much love and made the spores be with you Transcribed by https://otter.ai

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